The number of European politicians lining up to welcome Scotland is growing. I count four now with the inclusion of your French parliamentarian. Previously, Manfred Weber, Guy Verhofstadt, and Gunther Krichbaum. I wonder how many more we can attract in the coming weeks?
I think Scotland is relatively popular in Europe. And I think that Nicola has the charm and the intellect to appeal to their better natures. Of course it does help that democratically we elected to stay in Europe.
if it can be done, the Nicola and her team are the ones to do it.
Only as part of the UK... until it leaves. If you leave the UK before then, you'll have to apply. If you leave after then, you'll have to apply. Thems the rules.
I'll give you this Tris, Sturgeon is the only #ONLY# politician in a position of leadership in Britain with even the remotest plan of what to do after a Brexit vote.
I've summed up my view on the new question for pro-EU Scottish unionists like myself on my blog: British or European? How on earth do we choose?
Ys, I think so. Clearly the Tories are in turmoil, split 50-50 over whether Thursday was a good day or a bad one. They are in no position to govern or to show leadership.
Labour is too busy bitching at itself to be bothered with anything approaching opposition.
I've not heard a word from the Liberals.
Nicola has looked at the situation and is working on the results in Scotland, where her remit is.
She is earning praise from people who are by and large opposed to her politics.
In Scotland, it seems, unless I've missed it, that everyone is staying a bit quiet, except Kezia who seems to me to be leading Labour down the path to even further obscurity.
Thanks for the link. That SHOULD be on the side bar...
I would not be to quick to count on EU support. They were happy to play ball with WM in 2014. They may well use Scotland as a bargaining chip to get better deal from WM. If you want Independence it means be independent. That means rely on no one who has power over you.
I think in a modern world no country can really do that. The days of Albania and total independence are over. (Even Albania was subject to Chinese interference.)
I'm pretty sure Nicola and her team realise that everyone is potentially hostile. But It is Britain that needs concessions from Europe. Not the other way around.
Mr Johnson says that the UK will still be in the single market.
But being in teh single market means obeying the rules. The very rules that he railed against. Of course maybe the UK is SOOO important that it doesn't need to play by the rules. We shall have to wait and see. But if the EU gives into the UK, then it is the end of the EU, because everyone from Malta to Germany will demand the same.
There has been considerable support from European leaders, but no one knows. As Nicola said, we are in uncharted waters. The only country that has left the EU was Greenland.
People may look to the ease with which East Germany became a member, when there were no rules about that. It just happened, becasue the membership wanted it (to poke a stick in the eye of the Russians!)
The SNP need to take things slow and steady. While there may be some in the EU sympathetic to Scotland and N Ireland most will be in no rush to welcome us with open arms, esp Spain. I know the SNP are talking about a two year period and that at least is sensible as a lot of things can happen in two years.
The EU and many within it are very upset and won't make things easy for the UK but any actions that look like punishing the UK for the democratic decision of the voters, no matter how you voted, could backfire big time on any independence vote. Everyone needs to take a step back. It's all still very raw.
No one knows what will happen. Will the EU in the cold light of day review the whole project? Will they entertain an independent Scotland and fast track membership? Will Scotland be forced to accept the Euro? Will the EU tighten up membership rules to stave off other leave movements? Will Westminster bring in PR and Federalism to stave off Scottish Independence? Will this be boom or bust for the UK? Will the stupid racists in England and Scotland be prosecuted? The list goes on. No one knows.
I suppose the markets this week will be the judge of what may start to happen, sadly. I still stick to my belief that this could all have been avoided if the politicians actually governed for everyone and not the small elite and business, if they actually got out of their bubble and realized that the hardship people were facing was down to them pretty much and decisions they made that brought about a collapse all over the world and then they rewarded themselves and allowed the banks to reward themselves on the backs of the poor. Those then with the least decided to give them a kicking. Many voted leave out of ignorance but some, like myself, didn't vote leave because of immigration. I voted leave because the EU, like Westminster, had failed us. It failed Greece, it failed Spain, it failed Portugal etc and it showed no sign of wanting to reform. It was and is beholden to the same neo liberal politics that is failing all over the EU and protected a banking system that pretty much impoverished millions. That is not acceptable, an EU that is no different from Westminster is not anything that I want to be apart of to be honest no matter if there a few things that I like when most of the things I don't.
If there is a second referendum I will vote yes but I won't just blindly follow that with a yes vote in any EU referendum and I would urge the SNP to take it slow. Lose another referendum and it's over and there is no guarantee that in the cold light of day people will remain YES, no converts will remain YES.
Time for a steady hand, at least Nicola S is not stupid so there is some hope for us yet.
There are other voices in Europe. But we don't hear them. We find our media filters what we are made aware of, way more effectively than any Stalinist regime. The British - Voice of America in the EU - push U.S. interests. Such as Turkish membership for instance ( which Greece and or Cyprus will veto ). This fundamental lack of knowledge shone brightly last Thursday.
The EU we are trying to remain in is an evolving thing. The British influence pushed in one direction, and they had a lot of influence. Now that they will no longer be part of the project. There is no way of knowing what kind of EU we are asking to remain in. It may not be right for us. It may become a place the English will quickly clamour to rejoin. And indeed they may have to accept the Euro to do so ( but every voter will be told by Andrew Neil the fact that it is an aspiration, not a compunction).
The situation is fluid right now. But there is one consistent thing. We are routinely lied to, underinformed, misinformed and played by people to whom its all just a game.
I trust Nicola. I trust Alex. I don't trust any of the others.
It is clear to me that there is one woman who holds the Ace in this "game". Angela Merkel. If she comes out and tells us that Scotland is a member, and will continue as a member then we will have the best shot at getting our Country back. If she takes the English view then we are wasting our time running too soon. The EU is a much misunderstood beast. The voters will struggle to get it. But we have to fight with a guarantee of membership or we will be beaten again - and forever.
I voted Remain, but with resignation, not enthusiasm. I don't think many of the 62% were either enthusiastic or well informed. I do think many of them knew they were being lied to and voted for Status Quo. And "if you don't know vote no" cost us our freedom 21 months ago.
You are correct at this time no one can be forced to join the euro without first being a member of erm2 for a period of two years but some within the EU are now saying that if rules are changed with the UK exit then this is something that they will be looking at as a way of strengthening the EU in future. It was on Euro news and makes sense if true.
Correct, you can't be forced to use the Euro and of course we can keep the pound.
Only problem is that an independent Scotland within the EU will by necessity have to adopt the Euro for it's own protection. To align yourself to a currency without fiscal and political union is economic suicide. Look at the southern states of Euroland, this is what happens when you adopt a currency with massively divergent political and fiscal rules.
Everyone needs to calm down and see what the end result of this all is before doing something really stupid.
I hope Nicola is playing a blinder here and will force the hands of the UK government into much greater autonomy for Scotland as a precursor to independence in 5 to 10 years.
Thanks for all these comments... and some from new contributors who are very welcome.
I think the fact is that no one has the foggiest idea about exactlyn what is allowed and what is not.
And Nicola, whom I trust more than I've ever trusted a politician, has said as much. We are uncharted territory. This is all without precedent.
Maybe the EU will find a way to keep part of a country in, and part out, of the EU. They did so with Denmark and Greenland.
Maybe they won't. Maybe they will say that the centre has to be in the EU.
At present no one has to join the Euro. They have to be in the ERM for two years before they can do so and there is no obligation to enter the ERM. Mainly, I imagine, because having an economy that is out of step with the centre brings about chaos.
We should rule nothing out and nothing in.
Slowly and gently, not making promises we can't keep. Work with Northern Ireland and with London.
Nicola Sturgeon.....but what has she ever done for us??
Reg: They've bled us white, the snp bastards. They've taken everything we had, not just from us, from our fathers and from our fathers' fathers. Stan: And from our fathers' fathers' fathers. Reg: Yes. Stan: And from our fathers' fathers' fathers' fathers. Reg: All right, Stan. Don't labour the point. And what have the snp ever given us in return?
All right... all right... but apart from better sanitation and medicine and education and irrigation and public health and roads and a freshwater system and baths and public order... what have the SNP done for us?
You are perhaps mixing up a decent politician with a nest of liars.
Perhaps you could explain yourself?
The SNP are bastards, I get that.
Numerous generations of fathers, not daughters, have allied themselves to an idea. And they are all bastards? My daughter is no bastard and she is SNP.
Frankly
If I read you correctly, we have been doing this for generations unto generations.
Perhaps you should wonder why?
It is sad to see the end of a political movement. It is utterly sad to see shite like this below the line. Frankly you have lost the plot...
The leaders of the Out team (the sane ones) are acting as though they didnae mean it. Suck it up,the EU has had enough of Little Englanders constantly trying to derail their project and will insist that the democratic mandate is upheld. The Tories may try to delay the leave date for as long as possible but whatever the outcome,their status in Europe is now hugely diminished and any deal they manage to do on trade with the single market will now be on EU terms and not theirs. England's democracy in action.
Back in 1981, in Hard Road to Renewal, Stuart Hall remarked: “The right of the labour movement, to be honest, has no ideas of any compelling quality, except the instinct for short-term political survival. It would not know an ideological struggle if it stumbled across one in the dark. The only ‘struggle’ it engages in with any trace of conviction is the one against the left.” Thirty-five years on, this quote rings desperately true and shows how little the right of the party care about elections, for all the bluster.
I'm really disgusted with that shadow Scottish Secretary. There's no one but him, and he's prepared to give up his job because he thinks the next leader might chose him. What about Scotland?
I suppose you could say he was crap at the job anyway. We are well served by Angus.
A dis-abled guy I know on another forum that lives in England, just told me that he voted Leave. He reckons a Tory government away from Europe will look after him better. I could weep.
Brilliant Tris, just brilliant.
ReplyDeleteWell, thank you, Jim... But really we just flung some pics together.
DeleteThe number of European politicians lining up to welcome Scotland is growing. I count four now with the inclusion of your French parliamentarian. Previously, Manfred Weber, Guy Verhofstadt, and Gunther Krichbaum. I wonder how many more we can attract in the coming weeks?
ReplyDeleteHi Michelle,
DeleteI think Scotland is relatively popular in Europe. And I think that Nicola has the charm and the intellect to appeal to their better natures. Of course it does help that democratically we elected to stay in Europe.
if it can be done, the Nicola and her team are the ones to do it.
Good luck :-) I suspect you'll need it once you're in.
ReplyDeleteWe are in it already...
DeleteOnly as part of the UK... until it leaves.
DeleteIf you leave the UK before then, you'll have to apply. If you leave after then, you'll have to apply.
Thems the rules.
Thanks QM.
DeleteI'll give you this Tris, Sturgeon is the only #ONLY# politician in a position of leadership in Britain with even the remotest plan of what to do after a Brexit vote.
ReplyDeleteI've summed up my view on the new question for pro-EU Scottish unionists like myself on my blog: British or European? How on earth do we choose?
https://deanthetory.com/2016/06/27/british-or-european/
Ys, I think so. Clearly the Tories are in turmoil, split 50-50 over whether Thursday was a good day or a bad one. They are in no position to govern or to show leadership.
DeleteLabour is too busy bitching at itself to be bothered with anything approaching opposition.
I've not heard a word from the Liberals.
Nicola has looked at the situation and is working on the results in Scotland, where her remit is.
She is earning praise from people who are by and large opposed to her politics.
In Scotland, it seems, unless I've missed it, that everyone is staying a bit quiet, except Kezia who seems to me to be leading Labour down the path to even further obscurity.
Thanks for the link. That SHOULD be on the side bar...
I'm running late. I will read it this evening. :)
Tris,
ReplyDeleteErr, yes.
Our Nicola doing what she has do. And she is doing it brilliantly
She always was a heroine to me. Now she has become a superstar!
Bloody heck!
We need a leader right now. We got one.
DeleteThanks goodness.
I would not be to quick to count on EU support. They were happy to play ball with WM in 2014. They may well use Scotland as a bargaining chip to get better deal from WM. If you want Independence it means be independent. That means rely on no one who has power over you.
ReplyDeleteI think in a modern world no country can really do that. The days of Albania and total independence are over. (Even Albania was subject to Chinese interference.)
DeleteI'm pretty sure Nicola and her team realise that everyone is potentially hostile. But It is Britain that needs concessions from Europe. Not the other way around.
Mr Johnson says that the UK will still be in the single market.
But being in teh single market means obeying the rules. The very rules that he railed against. Of course maybe the UK is SOOO important that it doesn't need to play by the rules. We shall have to wait and see. But if the EU gives into the UK, then it is the end of the EU, because everyone from Malta to Germany will demand the same.
There has been considerable support from European leaders, but no one knows. As Nicola said, we are in uncharted waters. The only country that has left the EU was Greenland.
People may look to the ease with which East Germany became a member, when there were no rules about that. It just happened, becasue the membership wanted it (to poke a stick in the eye of the Russians!)
Tris
ReplyDeleteThe SNP need to take things slow and steady. While there may be some in the EU sympathetic to Scotland and N Ireland most will be in no rush to welcome us with open arms, esp Spain. I know the SNP are talking about a two year period and that at least is sensible as a lot of things can happen in two years.
The EU and many within it are very upset and won't make things easy for the UK but any actions that look like punishing the UK for the democratic decision of the voters, no matter how you voted, could backfire big time on any independence vote. Everyone needs to take a step back. It's all still very raw.
No one knows what will happen. Will the EU in the cold light of day review the whole project? Will they entertain an independent Scotland and fast track membership? Will Scotland be forced to accept the Euro? Will the EU tighten up membership rules to stave off other leave movements? Will Westminster bring in PR and Federalism to stave off Scottish Independence? Will this be boom or bust for the UK? Will the stupid racists in England and Scotland be prosecuted? The list goes on. No one knows.
I suppose the markets this week will be the judge of what may start to happen, sadly. I still stick to my belief that this could all have been avoided if the politicians actually governed for everyone and not the small elite and business, if they actually got out of their bubble and realized that the hardship people were facing was down to them pretty much and decisions they made that brought about a collapse all over the world and then they rewarded themselves and allowed the banks to reward themselves on the backs of the poor. Those then with the least decided to give them a kicking. Many voted leave out of ignorance but some, like myself, didn't vote leave because of immigration. I voted leave because the EU, like Westminster, had failed us. It failed Greece, it failed Spain, it failed Portugal etc and it showed no sign of wanting to reform. It was and is beholden to the same neo liberal politics that is failing all over the EU and protected a banking system that pretty much impoverished millions. That is not acceptable, an EU that is no different from Westminster is not anything that I want to be apart of to be honest no matter if there a few things that I like when most of the things I don't.
If there is a second referendum I will vote yes but I won't just blindly follow that with a yes vote in any EU referendum and I would urge the SNP to take it slow. Lose another referendum and it's over and there is no guarantee that in the cold light of day people will remain YES, no converts will remain YES.
Time for a steady hand, at least Nicola S is not stupid so there is some hope for us yet.
Bruce
No country can be forced to use the euro.
DeleteThere are other voices in Europe. But we don't hear them. We find our media filters what we are made aware of, way more effectively than any Stalinist regime. The British - Voice of America in the EU - push U.S. interests. Such as Turkish membership for instance ( which Greece and or Cyprus will veto ). This fundamental lack of knowledge shone brightly last Thursday.
DeleteThe EU we are trying to remain in is an evolving thing. The British influence pushed in one direction, and they had a lot of influence. Now that they will no longer be part of the project. There is no way of knowing what kind of EU we are asking to remain in. It may not be right for us. It may become a place the English will quickly clamour to rejoin. And indeed they may have to accept the Euro to do so ( but every voter will be told by Andrew Neil the fact that it is an aspiration, not a compunction).
The situation is fluid right now. But there is one consistent thing. We are routinely lied to, underinformed, misinformed and played by people to whom its all just a game.
I trust Nicola. I trust Alex. I don't trust any of the others.
It is clear to me that there is one woman who holds the Ace in this "game". Angela Merkel. If she comes out and tells us that Scotland is a member, and will continue as a member then we will have the best shot at getting our Country back. If she takes the English view then we are wasting our time running too soon. The EU is a much misunderstood beast. The voters will struggle to get it. But we have to fight with a guarantee of membership or we will be beaten again - and forever.
I voted Remain, but with resignation, not enthusiasm. I don't think many of the 62% were either enthusiastic or well informed. I do think many of them knew they were being lied to and voted for Status Quo. And "if you don't know vote no" cost us our freedom 21 months ago.
S.A.
Jim
DeleteYou are correct at this time no one can be forced to join the euro without first being a member of erm2 for a period of two years but some within the EU are now saying that if rules are changed with the UK exit then this is something that they will be looking at as a way of strengthening the EU in future. It was on Euro news and makes sense if true.
Correct, you can't be forced to use the Euro and of course we can keep the pound.
DeleteOnly problem is that an independent Scotland within the EU will by necessity have to adopt the Euro for it's own protection. To align yourself to a currency without fiscal and political union is economic suicide. Look at the southern states of Euroland, this is what happens when you adopt a currency with massively divergent political and fiscal rules.
Everyone needs to calm down and see what the end result of this all is before doing something really stupid.
I hope Nicola is playing a blinder here and will force the hands of the UK government into much greater autonomy for Scotland as a precursor to independence in 5 to 10 years.
Gary F
Why would Scotland have to adopt the Euro "for our own protection"?
DeleteSurely if we wanted to pick a currency that suited our circumstances, the Norwegian Krone would be a far better choice?
Thanks for all these comments... and some from new contributors who are very welcome.
DeleteI think the fact is that no one has the foggiest idea about exactlyn what is allowed and what is not.
And Nicola, whom I trust more than I've ever trusted a politician, has said as much. We are uncharted territory. This is all without precedent.
Maybe the EU will find a way to keep part of a country in, and part out, of the EU. They did so with Denmark and Greenland.
Maybe they won't. Maybe they will say that the centre has to be in the EU.
At present no one has to join the Euro. They have to be in the ERM for two years before they can do so and there is no obligation to enter the ERM. Mainly, I imagine, because having an economy that is out of step with the centre brings about chaos.
We should rule nothing out and nothing in.
Slowly and gently, not making promises we can't keep. Work with Northern Ireland and with London.
It's exciting.
jimnarlene
ReplyDeleteI trust Nicola. I trust Alex. I don't trust any of the others.
That is the position I find myself in too.
Bloody hell, trusting politicians, whatever next! I genuinely believe that Nicola Sturgeon has my, our, best interests at heart.
It is difficult for a cynic like me to believe in a politician, but in Nicola I do.
You're quoting the wrong person Douglas but, I agree with the sentiment.
DeleteYep, so do I.
DeleteI'm pressed for time at the moment... I'll read and respond to the rest of the comments this evening!
ReplyDeleteThanks as ever for your contributions.
ReplyDeleteNicola Sturgeon.....but what has she ever done for us??
Reg:
They've bled us white, the snp bastards. They've taken everything we had, not just from us, from our fathers
and from our fathers' fathers.
Stan:
And from our fathers' fathers' fathers.
Reg:
Yes.
Stan:
And from our fathers' fathers' fathers' fathers.
Reg:
All right, Stan. Don't labour the point. And what have the snp ever given us in return?
All right... all right... but apart from better sanitation and medicine and education and irrigation and public health and roads and a freshwater system and baths and public order... what have the SNP done for us?
DeleteConan
DeleteWell you understand unlike dear old Duggy
Niko for shadow Secretary of State, I say.
DeleteTris,
ReplyDeleteThis is just strange:
http://news.sky.com/video/1717859/islam-there-is-no-brexit-plan
Really?
Well, he's not wrong is he?
DeleteNikostratos,
ReplyDeleteYou are perhaps mixing up a decent politician with a nest of liars.
Perhaps you could explain yourself?
The SNP are bastards, I get that.
Numerous generations of fathers, not daughters, have allied themselves to an idea. And they are all bastards? My daughter is no bastard and she is SNP.
Frankly
If I read you correctly, we have been doing this for generations unto generations.
Perhaps you should wonder why?
It is sad to see the end of a political movement. It is utterly sad to see shite like this below the line. Frankly you have lost the plot...
Duggy
DeleteIn reply to your angry missive I give you
http://upload.smileyswelove.com/uploads/941/smiley-9142.jpg
I think Niko was having a wee joke, Douglas... :)
DeleteThe leaders of the Out team (the sane ones) are acting as though they didnae mean it.
ReplyDeleteSuck it up,the EU has had enough of Little Englanders constantly trying to derail their project and will insist that the democratic mandate is upheld.
The Tories may try to delay the leave date for as long as possible but whatever the outcome,their status in Europe is now hugely diminished and any deal they manage to do on trade with the single market will now be on EU terms and not theirs.
England's democracy in action.
I think it's possible they will find an excuse to rerun the referendum.
DeleteBoris never really had his heart in it. If he's PM he REALLY doesn't want to come out.
Anyone else wouldn't have the nerve to turn 180 degrees, but Boris is Boris.
But I'd say he might have unrest on the street of England if he u-turns.
The so-called united kingdom self-destructs. It's a privilege to witness its demise.
ReplyDeleteI do fervently hope so.
DeleteA insightful comment
ReplyDeleteBack in 1981, in Hard Road to Renewal, Stuart Hall remarked: “The right of the labour movement, to be honest, has no ideas of any compelling quality, except the instinct for short-term political survival. It would not know an ideological struggle if it stumbled across one in the dark. The only ‘struggle’ it engages in with any trace of conviction is the one against the left.” Thirty-five years on, this quote rings desperately true and shows how little the right of the party care about elections, for all the bluster.
Agreed. Absolutely and totally.
DeleteThis is all about personal ambitions.
I'm really disgusted with that shadow Scottish Secretary. There's no one but him, and he's prepared to give up his job because he thinks the next leader might chose him. What about Scotland?
I suppose you could say he was crap at the job anyway. We are well served by Angus.
A dis-abled guy I know on another forum that lives in England, just told me that he voted Leave. He reckons a Tory government away from Europe will look after him better.
ReplyDeleteI could weep.
Yep. That is truly sad.
DeleteThey will trample on him, then push him off a cliff.
Totally off topic. Tweet of the night from Dan Walker:
ReplyDeleteIceland 2 : Poundland 1
Boom Boom.