Wednesday, 11 January 2012


The scare tactics have begun. The respect agenda gone out the window. And we're only on day two!

A "spokesman" for Mr Cameron has said that Scotland could be "forced" to join the Euro if it insists on independence.

What does he think Alex Salmond is going to do? "Oh well, that's it lads. That Eton and Oxford education was too much for me. Call me has outwitted us. We'll just have to scrap any idea of independence"?

Yeah, that's likely!

In more civilized times, with far more civilized and intelligent leaders, Ireland was granted independence from the United Kingdom (although it took a war to make it happen) and carried on within the sterling area. There was no rush to throw Ireland  out of the sterling area and the Irish Pound stayed pegged to the English pound until the advent of the ERM. 

Here is a part of the Wikipedia page on the subject. 

"Despite increasing political independence from each other from 1922 and complete political independence since the new constitution of 1937, the union left the two countries intertwined with each other in many respects. Ireland used the Irish pound from 1928 until 2001 when the euro replaced it. Until it joined the ERM in 1979, the Irish pound was directly linked to the pound sterlingDecimalisation of both currencies occurred simultaneously on Decimal Day in 1971. Coins of equivalent value had the same dimensions and size until the introduction of the British twenty pence coin in 1982,.
"Irish citizens in the UK have a status almost equivalent to British citizens. They can vote in all elections and even stand for Parliament. As well as this, some people born in the Republic of Ireland before 1949, but after 3 March 1922, are British subjects. British citizens have similar rights to Irish citizens in the Republic of Ireland and can vote in all elections apart from presidential elections and referendums. Under the Irish nationality law anyone born on the island of Ireland to a British or Irish parent can have Irish citizenship and so most children born in Northern Ireland can have a British or an Irish passport (or both). Before 2002, there was no requirement for one parent to be a British or Irish citizen and so all persons born on the island of Ireland before then are entitled to be Irish citizens."

So why does Cameron insist on behaving like a spoilt child? There is absolutely no need, nor is there a precedent, for Scotland to leave the sterling area immediately. 
Can Cameron possibly think that threatening to force Scotland into a currency that is wobbling dangerously on the edge of extinction and which might not even exist by the time the referendum has come and gone, is a clever move on his part? Frankly I think it's a dumb as a stump.

But John Swinney will already have contingency plans in place for this eventuality, whether that is starting out own currency or working with another country like Norway.

Message to Cameron: If you want to behave like an 8 year old who isn't getting his own way, take your bloody ball and sod off home. We'll get our own ball.


  1. Quite frankly, Tris, economics is not my strongest point - I wonder what is? - but I would be very suspicious regarding any Scottish currency being pegged to the pound sterling and would be rather worried if linked to the Euro. What's the alternative(s)?

  2. Fried Mars Bars... Barter with Batter....


    I imagine John, that we could have our own currency: our crown, or croon, or shilling or boab.

    We could call it a Muckle of 100 Mickles (and kids would learn that "in money, mony a Mickle macks a Muckle).

    I, like you, know precious little about economics, but it seems to me that the lesson of the € is that if you are in a currency union, you must ahe a political union to go along with it, so I'm not sure why we would want it...

    ...It would also be true to say that for most of the time of the currency union between the English and Irish pounds, Ireland remained poor...

    But that was Alex's answer to Annabel in parliament. We would initially stay in the pound zone.

    And he's an economist.

    Anyone else got an idea?

  3. So why does he continue to act like a spoiled child?

    Perhaps because he was a spoiled child.

    The man is a patrician and I bet he cannot explain the offside rule.

  4. Citigroup have maybe told him that without Scotland we are totally £@$&ed.

  5. Well there is that Wolfie... and I shouldn't think did 'offside' at Eton. It's far too complex.

  6. Brown owlie

    The Bawbee what else

  7. Listening and watch The Gotan Project from a recorded video om Arte

    Stupendously excellent if you like modern Tango

    Good quality transmission too

  8. Good heavens CH... she sounds a bit of a one doesn't she?

    I mean I don't have a problem with the pony in the house. I'd do that rather than leave the poor thing outside in the Hebridean winds, but she seems to fall out with everybody and them go drink driving. I didn't think it was an offence up there, so she must have hacked off the polis good and proper!!

    You watch out Mr Brownlie. She'll be round your place looking for your back bedroom for the grey mare.

  9. Perfect niko... You can get some Coulter's Candy with it...

    (that will mean nothing to foreigners... and possibly anyone who didn't know my granny!)

  10. I was the Casino de Paris a few weeks ago Wolfie. It's a fabulous theatre.

    Traditional Argentinian tango merged avec electronic lounge music.

    It's a decent sound certainly... I'd not mind seeing that live.

  11. It depends on Scotland position vis the EU if Scotland does go for full independence rather than remaining in the UK as an autonomous state. If it's the former then Scotland will have to negotiate entry to the EU (if that's what you want) if that's the case you'll have to accept the Euro as your currency as only the UK and Denmark have an opt out all new members have to sign up.
    If it's the latter you can keep your pounds.

  12. Yes QM:

    Although there is dubiety over the fact that as current members of the EU, we would simply continue in the EU as England, Wales, NI would, in which case we would not be obliged to join.

    As Alex said in any case you don't have to actually join until your economic situation is in accord with Europe's, and I can't see that happening any time soon.

    But Cameron is just acting like a big spoilt posh kid. If you don't do what WE want will take your currency away so there!... and you'll have to join a currency that's headed for the rocks.

    What a pathetic nob he is.

  13. I'm really enjoying this music Wolfie

  14. 'Ireland'?....Republic of Ireland please..

  15. Tris,

    The scare tactics have not just begun on day 2.

    They have been there of years.

    Cameron preddles his retoric, Big Eck peddles anti English retoric and uses the Thatcher word at every possible turn. However since the act of the union and the 100 Scottish Barons signed the Magna Carta in 1592 I for 1 am getting bored listening to both sets of tripe.

    Couple of things I do know.
    1. If we get independance where do we get 26 billion a year in revenue from?
    2. The oil is not Scottish , never has been. It belongs to whoever drills it out the ground in international waters.
    3. Should Independance be voted for it will take 20 years to get the paperwork done and by that stage Westminster could have a new pipe in place dropping in into the North East of England and with a small % reduction in taxation on landing then BP Shell whoever would not think twice about closing that valve in the Firth of Forth.

    I want an independant Scotland but I dont want EU socialist dictation which is what we would be forced to accept as a new entrant under the treaty. I dont want the Euro.......... that is screwed and has been for years. The ECB is lying about it even at this stage.

    Lets at least fight it on an economic and sovereign basis and indeed what is best for the union.

    Sadly all I see right now is lies and hatered. Dare is say rascism.

  16. I wouldn't worry, to much, about the pronouncements from the leader of the Unionists. This is just something for the Unionist press to grab hold of to stick it to the SNP and confuse the voters. It's just politics. At the end of the day a deal will be done and everyone will live happily ever after until...

  17. QM

    I think we need to have another look at some post independence prognostications and fog coming from the unionist side.

    A propos the EU, a number of analyses have been proposed by various "experts"

    The problem is bot with the different thinking but with the spin that the politicos put on these.

    1. Scotland would have to apply to join the EU as the they would have left the UK and with it the EU?

    2. Both countries would need to apply to rejoin?

    3. Both entities would still be in it?

    If we look at the Treaty of Union, and there is only one to form the United Kingdom of Great Britain, it is agreed that either party Scotland or England can break it, if they wish. Wales by way of conquest and absorbtion was deigned to part of England here.

    Thus by all international conventions and laws, both parties in such a situation would have equal rights and obligations to all joint treaties etc etc. So Scotland and the Former United Kingdom Rump (FUKR for short) would still be in the EU, if they want?

    One Dutch Law Prof of EU Law has said moreover that as Scots have "European Nationality", by way of being a nation part of the UK, this right cannot be removed from them in such circumstances.

    There is a lot of bum fluff from English based constitutional experts, including Tomkins, and many legal experts in "domestic" constitutional law are genuinely unsure about the situation which is why I evidenced the Dutch one, as being a neutral outsider looking in, not a card carrying politically motivated one on the inside.

    The big mistake Cameron makes is to assume that whatever FUKR he inherits would be the same one as he has now. No Scotland, no UK, simple.

    There is for QM, in all this uncertainty, a route for FUKR to extricate themselves from the EU, if they want.

    I am of a mind that an EEC association with EU will do for now for an independent Scotland.

    The disadvantage is that we would have to adhere to many rules, regulations and laws that the EU promulgates without having the opportunity of influencing the decision making process. Effectively as we have now without Thatcher, Cameron et al using Scotland as a throwaway chip in his late night casino negotiations over Fishing Rights, Airport Taxes etc.

    The advantage for Scotland is that we would have total control over our social and international policies, including defence and our natural resources.

    In fact I would vote for the Norwegian option.

  18. Well, yes it is Anonymous, but France is La République Française, but we just call it France except on Sundays! :)

  19. Hello TLOTF. Long time since we've seen you here. Welcome back

    I don't think Alex's rhetoric is anti-English. I don't think most SNP members are anti English any more than they are anti-French or anti-Finnish.

    It is however anti- UK and, because the Tories, fronted by Cameron, the posh English upper middle class boy, have no mandate here whatsoever, there is an anti-Tory bias.

    I don't think I've ever heard Salmond say a bad word about the English. But he doesn't like them having a control over our country...and they do.

    I'm no economist and I'm not even going to start arguing your figures, but the SNP has a team of good economists and I suspect that they have already thought about the economic possibilities... plus and minus.

    Independence has the support of many top businessmen who'd probably not be too keen if the bottom was going to fall out of the country within a year.

    As far as the EU is concerned, one of the things I've noticed is that, although it has its detractors everywhere, nowhere have I ever heard the kind of plain open hatred that I hear for it in the UK.

    That could be because Britain thinks itself above being bossed around by a pile of garlic eating, wine drinkers, and of course, having won the war, some
    people resent German superiority. It could be because the UK makes mountains out of molehills in respect of EU directives.

    The EU in Britain is run from London; Representation is done on an English basis. The English fisheries minister, separate from the Scottish fisheries minister, represents the UK. And when we ask for our ministers to be included, they say that our man can come along, but he won't get a seat at the table and he mustn't say a word against English/UK policy.

    Maybe if we had our own voice in these things we wouldn't find it so distasteful.

  20. yes, Gedguy, but the rhetoric sticks...

    There will be people all over Scotland today thinking... oh no, we can't vote for independence if we are going to have to go into that terrible €.

    Cameron should have kept that for the night before the vote though. "One must keep ones powder dry, dear fellow."

  21. Wolfie. Thanks for that. You summed it up much better than I did :)

    I remember at the time of the last referendum in Norway, the then Norwegian prime minister, Fru Gro Harlem Brundtland, said that being in the Economic Area meant you had all the benefits of the single market, and all the shortcomings of it, but no voice to influence it.

    I think I'd be wary of that... It's a bit like the current situation, which is not satisfactory.

  22. The economics of independence is significant.

    The SNP want independence, but will keep the pound.

    So we should vote for independence, so secure fiscal freedom, but still have London dictate monetary policy?

    Pray, why shouldn't I just vote 'No', and secure fiscal freedom for Scotland WIHIN THE UNION - which is a lot less of a radical upturn for people, business, and investors in Scotland?

    SNP - failing to make the economic case for independence.

    Isn't that why Salmond is playing up the issue of processes rather than talk about the issues in the referendum vote?

  23. Well I don't accept that he is. It's Cameron that has forced the hand on this. He has said that uncertain is costing jobs, and ruining the economy. He actually announced all this as Eck was opening another factory.

    I'd suggest that reasons you might want to be independent is that we'd be able to choose whether we went to war or not, had nuclear weaponry instead of welfare for the poor or decent roads, set the level of our own pensions, negotiated separately in the EU... the top of my head.

    It's day 2 Dean. Have the unionists made any particular points except that Cameron seems to be in the huff, and has used the most ridiculous scare tactics.

    Didn't he read history at Oxford? And Politics?

    I wonder if they did the Irish situation.

  24. Oh dear Dean, I would have expected a better point from you!

    After independence, it would be in both Scotland's and FUKR's joint interest not to allow the arbitragers loose.

    Stability than the issue of a Scots Pound tied to the £STG followed by a free float or possibly tied to the $US, €, The Rimimbi or the Cameroon coconut shell.

    You are putting up a good honourable fight Dean, but Camerooned and Osborne are selling you down the river ecery time they meddle in Scottish affairs.

    Marooned by Cameroon

    I like that.

  25. To brighten up a dreich day Cameron blowing hot air.

    I am all in favour of a Scottish pound or Dram.

  26. A good news day for the Tories !
    They are no longer outnumbered in Scotland by pandas ( at least not in public).
    One is sick. Probably too much fine Edinburgh food. It thought it was going to Glasgow Zoo and was training on bottles of ginger and square lorne sausage.

  27. marooned BY him is better than WITH him Wolfie... don't you think.

  28. CH, that just has to be the funniest thing I've seen for months...

    Carry On Up The Glens...

  29. Och Poor wee... well big... thing.

    But it's only colic, and the Chinese say that it's quite normal for Pandas to get colic.

    I thought we were feeding him fried Mars Bars and Irn Bru...

  30. Just supposing Westminster said there was no problem with Scotland obtaining Independence and all of the unionists were playing nicey-nicey towards the SNP - persuading us to claim independence at our earliest convenience - would we be worried? You bet!

    The imperialist spew that we are being showered with isn't exactly a surprise and exposes their weaknesses to a far greater extent than they realise. I would imagine that the looming prospect (for the dependency parties) of the SNP consultation document about to be released in the next two weeks is generating the rattling of rolled umbrellas by our unionist chums.
    Do they understand our Scottish motto "Nemo me impune lacessit"?

  31. Oh Lord Clarinda, we would be looking behind the skirting boards for the bomb...

    But you have to agree, threatening to throw us out of the pound and into the Euro was pretty low stuff.

    OK, I suppose that any thinking person knows it would never happen... but none the less.

    I would have thought that Boris could probably translate the motto for them if they need some help...

  32. I've got a Irish 17,000 pound note I can give you for £10,000 pound in cash Tris - that is £7,000 profit - How about it eh!

    Actually as I have said over at mine the Labour, Tory and Lib Dem parties all have the same agenda - They all promised a referendum on the EU and they all u-turned pretty sharply on this when they got into power.

    A lot of their huffing and puffing about the Scottish referendum is to take peoples attention in the rest of the UK away from that but the rest of it is to do with the fact that the highers up in these three parties are the puppets of the bankers and elite who planned and set up the EU to start with and who are doing the same with the North American and Asian unions etc at present. It is the same in the US and Canada etc there is no difference in the agenda of the main parties either.

    The same bankers and elite are deliberately bringing down all these countries economies in order to bring in a world government and world currency ruled by them.

    People have got to wake up to what is going on as there is no going to be independence for anyone never mind Scotland - these people have just brought down Hungary by financial blackmail - they own the banks and stock markets and can easily bring down a country like they have been doing and manipulating all the countries with the solution of giving up their independence and sovereignty to save them.

    People need to wake up as long as the Bilderberg Group etc hold all the power and buy up all the politicians there is not going to be independence or freedom for anyone.

  33. Don't you have two, Billy? I only buy things in pairs.

    You're absolutely right. The bankers and the credit rating agencies, the hedge funders who gamble with thing they don't have and will never have, people who are responsible for trillions of dollars/euros of misery all over the world need to be broht down.

    Of course we have been bullied into believing that without them the world would stop revolving and spin slowly down to die.

    What rubbish; they are a pile of chancing bastards (sorry mum) who want putting on a wee island in their swimwear, to sip cocktails.

    The only thing that's not idyllic about that is that the island would be off the northern coast of Siberia, and they'd have a choice of swimwear or birthday suits!

    Mind you... looking at your opening offer there, I'm not sure you shouldn't join them! :)

  34. The difference is I am only joking about the money Tris but I would hang the bastards (sorry Tris's mum) rather than put them on any island.

  35. Awww... and I thought I might be in for a quick profit... Oh well.


  36. The currency issue is a difficult one.

    The Euro is not popular in the Britain context so it would be opening up a whole eastern front to suggest we ditch the pound and join the Euro.

    A separate currency would likely appreciate rather like the Norwegian currency has. This would be great for buying imported goods but would be the death of any industry that had to compete in either domestic or external markets. Only commodities traded in currencies like the dollar would be readily exportable and the rest of the economy would be hammered.

    There is precedent for retaining the pound - Eire - and there are some quite successful crown dependencies around this island which have their own currencies but which are in the Sterling Area.

    Who would have thought 30 years ago that the two Germanies would be reunified, that China would be the second largest economy in the world or that the M74 extension would ever be completed? Things change. Maybe the pound will be gone in 10 years.

    Its no really that big a deal.

  37. Precisely Anon... And I agree. Furthermore they can't stop us keeping the pound. it doesn't belong to England.

    Thanks for making me laugh though...

    The M74... LOL