This blog has taken a neutral view of the EU referendum from the date it was announced.
There is a good deal that we like about the EU, and a good deal that we don't.
In our opinion the main protagonists in the argument so far (as portrayed by the press) have been largely from the Tory Party which is successfully tearing itself apart. That, of course, is something we have no trouble with. Although we think it was madness to stir up this bother just as the Labour Party were descending into internecine warfare over Corbyn actually being a socialist.
A better Tory leader could have managed the internal unrest over Europe, given that it has been bubbling under for years. But then, where would one of them come from?
We can't for the life of us imagine why anyone in their right minds would trust the word of people like Farage, Johnson, Gove, Duncan Smith or Grayling on the one hand, or the word of Cameron, Gideon, May on the other. They all appear to us to be quintessential incompetents. At best they are figures of fun.
We are lucky not to have done ourselves serious damage while falling about laughing at the similarity of the arguments of "Remain" in this EU referendum to those of "NO", "UKOK", or "Better Together" in our referendum. But then the arguments of the "Leave" side have been equally outlandish. It's been like there were two Project Fears at each other's throats.
Downright lying on both side, usually by people who KNEW they were lying (or were incredibly stupid) has been a mark of the campaigns. They are treating the public like it is comprised of terminally stupid gullible idiots, ready to believe the very worst/the very best according to their newspaper of choice.
We continue to take no side, and will do until the wretched thing is over and done with. The only way to remain sane is to laugh like a drain.
European elections have always been low turnout affairs. We suspect the turnout for this referendum will be lower than that of 1975, in itself considered low at the time (42.2%), partly becasue of its proximity to other elections (parliamentary in Wales, NI and Scotland, and local in England), and partly because of the mess that the leaders in the Uk have made of the campaigns.
For a much more serious look at these matters we recommend the excellent Doug Daniel article here. It's really first rate.
We also recommend the continuing story of Britain in the EU by Dr Craig Dalzell of the Green party. Second part now up.
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Next step in EURef. Jane Hill stands outside WM & does series of live updates backed by Brexit posters while ignoring Remain rally.
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Unanimous Treasury Committee report says both REMAIN and LEAVE Campaigns are lying. It's true. Why should voters vote? #MassBoycott? #EUref
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The "we" we are using in this post is not royal in origins. Munguin has still not been assimilated into the royal family (although we might recommend him to princess Beatrice).
We just thought that it was a collective thing, as opposed to Tris's opinion, and that it would be better expressed in the plural.
We hope you don't think we were being pretentious.
Pretentious? Nous?
Tris
ReplyDeleteI know James is a legend on the polls and called the indy ref but I really think this one is close. I don't know who a low turn out favors but from people I speak to I would say it's 3-1 voting out. Both the Tory campaigns are shocking, they are actually worse than Better Together but now the official campaign has started we are seeing the likes of Willie Rennie making a comeback. They are all liars, they have driven this country into the ground and a remain vote saves them to do even more. A leave vote might just bring this Government down, tip them over the edge and a huge part of me wants that to happen so I remain undecided and probably will right up to the vote. All sides need to do a lot more, the media need to do a lot more as well or they might just get the vote they didn't want.
Bruce
I have to ask Bruce, do you live in Scotland?
DeleteBecause if you do, then voting to stay in the EU is a win-win situation really:
Scots IN, England IN: We get to watch the Tories implode alongside their creation, UKIP :)
Scots IN, England OUT, overall IN: We get to laugh at all the little englander fury over Scotland actually having a say - "You wanted us to stay fellas, you get to deal with the consequences :)"
Scots IN, England OUT, overall OUT: Indyref round 2.
So, overall, the best results all come from Scotland voting IN, and England voting OUT.
Illy
DeleteI do see where you are coming from and understand the premise. I agree watching the Conservatives go batshit at Scotland keeping England in the EU against it's will would be very funny but I'm actually not that convinced by the EU overall even though I am probably more remain than leave, just. I don't believe a leave vote brings about another referendum but the thought of being left to the ravishes of the same parties and politicians who have brought Scotland to it's knees doesn't sit well either. Hense, undecided.
Bruce
Much more chance of a second Scottish referendum if England drags Scotland out of the EU against Scotland's wishes. I'm not a big fan of the EU so I'll be holding my nose when voting Remain.
DeleteI'm not convinced by the EU either (given the choice, I'd want Scotland in the EFTA), but I'd rather there be *some* form of restraint on the Tories down in London, than none.
DeleteBecause, quite frankly, the less power they have, the better.
All really good points.
DeleteIlly, I like your thinking.
Bruce I'm undecided too. But Illy got me thinking.
Illy, partnership with Iceland, Norway, Switzerland and Liechtenstein would wok well for Scotland, another small and potentially rich country. It would not work with the UK, which has far more population than the other four countries together, and would in any case demand everything be changed to its way within days of joining. I think EFTA has already ruled out the Uk joining on these bases.
Yes Dan. I'd say not automatic, but improved chance, especially after the inevitable period of instability that follows changes of that magnitude (and would do for Scotland too).
umm wot i have learned from this farrago is how
ReplyDeleteyou nats felt from the referendum ...
and i dont believe the end is going to be as Cameron
and co imagine win or lose something is changing and
business as usual in the UK just aint gonna happen .
Niko
DeleteI'm not a nat as you describe I assume nationalists, if I have to be anything I suppose I'm a social liberal but I probably prefer person or human to be honest.
Bruce
bruce
DeleteHuman.....that will do
Ah well, I'm glad we have that settled. :)
DeleteThere you go. This is worse, Niko. It's less important, but we have two sets of negative Tories lambasting each other, telling lies and then calling each other liars. It's utter nightmare.
I'm leaning towards a Remain, only because the thought of a Tory government unfettered by EU laws regarding human decency fills me with horror.
ReplyDeleteWould I vote Remain if Scotland was a normal independent country, I honestly don't know. The way Greece was treated makes me think I would vote Leave.
As long as we are shackled to the City of London, I think Europe offers some protection to ordinary folk in Scotland.
Yes, I think we should worry about the Tories let unfettered to do as they will with no one to pull them back. I've always been in favour of the EU precisely because Mrs Thatcher called it "socialism by the back door".
DeleteNot that I'm particularly a socialist, but some restraint was needed for her, Major, Blair, Brown and Cameron. (We gather mr Osborne rather likes that... not to mention Mr Whipping dale!)
Can you imagine an unfettered Boris?
Gordon Kemp MacIntyre has a great piece in today's National on the EU. Scotland benefits enormously from the EU and does more than anything else to even up the concentration of vainglorious projects in London and the South East.
ReplyDeleteThere's a man who talks some sense. I have a lot of respect for him.
DeleteI'll see if I can get it, Bill. Thanks.
@ Tris: I sorta like the Union Flag with EU stars. What flag couldn't be improved with the addition of stars? Except the Saltire. It's elegant as it is.
ReplyDeleteWell, that was from the NYT, Danny.
DeleteI wonder where they got the idea of stars? Maybe a few stripes would just make it perfect. :)
Remain for me, Scotland should and will negotiate its own terms with the EU, then and only then can Scotland make an informed decision on whether it remains within the union. Scotland is fiscally neutral within the EU, we get back what we contribute, Ireland and Wales more, England less. Joining EFTA will cost us the same as now, Norway currently pays the same as Scotland for access to the European markets, without the return investment. I have no objection to EFTA and when we are an Independent country we will at that point need to make a decision on where our best interests lie.
ReplyDeleteI was listening to an article on radio on Switzerland.
DeleteThey too have an EU "arrangement", whereby they pay to have access to the markets, and they agree to the terms and conditions of the EU, which includes the free movement of goods, services and people.
They tried at one point a couple of years ago to have the agreement exclude the "people" part.
It didn't work. The EU said, 'no people, no goods'. Switzerland backed down.
I like the idea of EFTA, and Scotland's place in it, but it worries me a little that while other small countries would have a seat at the top table, Scotland, like Norway, would not.
For example Malta could veto Turkey's membership; Norway, Switzerland or Scotland, could not.
You're right. That is an issue for the future. The UK will not be a member of EFTA.
It will have to negotiate its trade agreements separately.