Alan is bang on about this.
After the vote, whatever it is, life will change.
IT IS NOT, AND NEVER HAS BEEN, A VOTE FOR INDEPENDENCE v THE STATUS QUO.
It's important that everyone understand that.
If we vote yes, we are voting to take control of our own affairs; make laws for ourselves, albeit within the confines of membership of the UN, NATO, EU, Geneva Conventions, and many other international organisations (but not the thousands that Rennie suggested) which will make demands of and place constraints upon us.
We will make up our minds how much we tax, and in what way; whether our taxation will be progressive or regressive. We will decide what we can afford to spend on health and education, just like now, but without the constraints imposed by London. We will decide what we can borrow, unlike now when we quite simply cannot borrow.
We will decide what a minimum wage should be; we will decide what retirement pensions should be and how much we pay people when they cannot find work, or are too ill to work. We will decide our social security policy. Not some crook in London employing a bunch of target driven heartless venture capitalists.
We will decide how much electricity and gas should be allowed to increase; and what is to be done with the bonanza of cash that continues to accrue from the north Sea, and will do so for many decades yet. Will we spend it on war, and enriching the rich, or will we pay for decent retirement pensions, roads fit for the 20th, never mind the 21st century (a single carriage highway between the highland's two largest cities is beyond a joke, not to mention a deathtrap).
We will decide our own foreign policy; not Washington DC. We will decide whether or not to go to war in Muslim countries that have oil, and then, having killed and maimed, leave them in utter turmoil, the necessary contracts signed, the usual suspects many millions of dollars better off and of course the sleazy spiv with his Congressional Medal in pride of place on the mantlepiece.
But what about the possibility that we will be persuaded by Alistair Carbuncle and Dearest Darling Alistair, not to mention the BBC, that, sole in Europe, we are too wee, too poor and too stupid to be left in charge of our own country; that we need the likes of David Cameron and George Osborne, or Nigel Farage and Iain Duncan Smith or even Ed Miliband and Yvette Cooper to play the grown ups and make sure we don't do silly childish things?
Well, who knows, because they refuse to say.
The Electoral Commission demanded information be made available by both campaigns and set a deadline of mid winters day.
The Government responded by issuing 600+ pages of its vision for Scotland. Better Together responded by saying, erm, well we will look at some more powers; more responsibility; erm, but we can't say exactly what.
David Cameron asks you to trust him... Yes, the man whose middle names should have been U Turn and Liar, is asking you to trust him.
Let's be honest, even his best friends wouldn't do that.
Already the English are demanding that the Barnett Formula be scrapped and payments made on the basis of need.
Yes, need, as determined by Westminster's largely English MPs, who collectively seem to define "need" as their expenses and pay increase. But who are also in the process of privatising health and education in England, and who have already sold off just about everything England and Britain ever owned, including water.
Can you imagine it? Water, in Scotland, something for private industry to make money out of?
I agree with Alan. We will lose £4-£7 billion a year.
Money, you will remember, that we already MORE THAN pay to the UK. And we will be forced to sell off all the services we hold dear.
What makes the English jealous of us now will disappear. And mainly because political parties mustn't upset the English voters. They, remember, decide who will govern; who will sit at the feet of the president and who will get congressional medals.
And what does Labour say to all this Tory right wing privatisation of everything that isn't nailed down, and most stuff that is?
Bravo! That's what they say.
They want to be even harsher with Social Security. Ms Lamont (and presumably Ed) thinks we are a nations of scroungers who want something for nothing, so she won't be fighting our corner when the sick and thrown out on the street because they can't pay their rents.
Ms Lamont wants rid of the Barnett Formula. She thinks Scotland gets too much money.. indeed, I seem to recall that Labour sent back money to England when they were in power, telling them we didn't need it. Obviously they don't get out much in Scotland.
Once they have, or think they have, put "independence" back in the box... they will do what they did before... collect up the money, put a new brand of nuclear weapon within 40 miles of Glasgow and give us as little as possible. (Addition/Correction: I am obliged to Scaraben for a more accurate estimate of the distance from Glasgow in his post below. It seems that 40kms or 25 miles is closer to the relatiy.)
But mark my words. No matter what they do to us, we will NOT be allowed another referendum. We had to get permission for this one from our posh English overlord, Eton Boy. And no matter how the situation changes; no matter what they visit on us, we'll not be allowed another one.
So, if you are contemplating a no vote, remember that you are not voting for the status quo; remember all the promises that Alec Douglas Home and Mrs Thatcher made and remember you won't get another chance.
Lamont is a very nasty person.ReplyDelete
There is no status quo.
only tribute acts.
... and Matchstick Men!Delete
But how I laughed at Only an excuse - they got her off to a tee.Delete
Happy New Year everybody and let's make 2014 a Del Monte one (the man who liked to say Yes!).
I'll drink to that!Delete
Twelve good reasons to vote No to independence.ReplyDelete
I look forward to the day that Blair is charged for crimes against humanity.
That was brilliant.Delete
I do too, and if there was anything I could do to hasten it, all they have to do is ask.
The man was a monster. In order to keep in with the moron Bush, so that he might be mistaken for someone who was important in the world, he allowed the killing and maiming of hundreds of thousands of people, when he knew the reasons given for going to war to be utterly without any foundation in fact.
He is a murderer and I hope he gets what's coming.
Then some more.
You talk about a "nuclear weapon within 40 miles of Glasgow", but actually Faslane and Coulport are about 40 kilometres (25 miles) from central Glasgow, in a straight line. Helensburgh is only about 5 miles, and Greenock about 8 miles from Faslane. In Trident missiles, the warheads are in close proximity to highly inflammable fuel. If a fuel tank were ruptured, and the fuel ignited, there is surely a possibility that the conventional explosives in a warhead might detonate. While this would probably not lead to a full nuclear explosion, many thousands of people could be exposed to radiation, especially if the wind were blowing from the northwest.ReplyDelete
Of course, this level of risk would not be acceptable in England. Neither would parking obsolete nuclear submarines in the Thames Estuary, but there are 7 at Rosyth, about 11 miles from the centre of Edinburgh).
Thanks for these corrections Scaraben.Delete
I read somewhere, following the revelations of near misses in the USA, that there had been many "close things" in Scotland, but as you say, it's only near Glasgow and no one who went to Eton lives there, do they.
I'd put the dock at the bottom of the garden of Downing Street.
I've always said that no country shoulde ver go to war unless the head of it is right up there at the front. Now I don;t expect 87 year old Liz to be out there fighting, but Charlie...why not, with Cameron as his bag boy.
And Nuclear Subs in the pond at Buck House.
I think this is pretty much on the money. In the event of a no vote...and I am thinking this would be a very narrow win. They will start to implement measures to remove Barnett, cut the block grant and force us to raise an additional "Scottish" tax. A tax just for Scots and no one else in the UK. Scotland already pays more in tax than it actually gets in Barnett formula payments. It also has been running a surplus, but that won't stop them looking to do a cash grab. Labour will sit there licking its lips at occupying the ruins and raising council taxes in addition to the new Scottish tax. It will attempt to reduce civic Scotland to be more in line with the UK.ReplyDelete
And it will fail. Instead it will create so much division and anger at them and at Westminster, it just won't be the tories who lose out. It will be the Unionists. By doing this, they will have basically destroyed the very thing the claimed to want to protect. They will lose their precious councils, they will lose their voice in Europe.
I can see the SNP and the Greens becoming the two main parties in Scotland. The tories will cease to exist, as will the lib-dems. Scottish Labour will become the new tory party and wither on the vine as its support dries up.
Anything that remained of the UK and the Union will cease to exist as well. The situation will resemble Quebec or the Catalonia in Spain. Increasingly distant and wanting nothing to do with the "mother" country. We''ll stop talking to one another as we will have nothing to say to one another.
In the end, there will be another referendum and this time, there will be nothing to stop it all crashing down.
Why am I so sure you ask? Because its all based on the idiotic logic that led thatcher, major and Scottish labour to disaster. They think they can get away with it, because they can't imagine a scenario were Scotland was going to stop voting for them. The house, even with reduced numbers will increasingly be filled with parties that are not at all friendly to Westminster. The acts of union allow for a referendum in the event of a win at Holyrood and a win for nationalist parties at Westminster. They can't change the acts of union without approval of the Scots and guess what...they won't get it. They'll reduce numbers and not let them vote on English affairs. Westminster will slowly lose relevance to Scots. And all those odious taxes and cuts to services are going to make the Union seem like a damn bad idea. So just like in 1997, after 20yrs of tory incompetence, the Scots will vote to end it
Mr Bisset is basically saying what some English commentators are already saying. regardless of the vote, yes or no, the Union loses
There you have it...Delete
The only way the union would stay in tact would be if the yes vote were very small...well under 25%, I think.
Other than that the union will never be the same.
People have had to think. People have been faced with stark facts about the fact that they are subsidising the UK, and in particular that great big vacuum cleaner, London, where so much of our money goes to support lifestyles we couldn't imagine, and form where comes the impetus for such ridiculous policies as the Bedroom Tax. I can well understand why the government doesn't want to pay out for an extra bedroom which costs the taxpayer a couple of hundred pounds a week!
We must get it across: you are voting for two possibilities, neither of which is the status quo.
One of which has been laid out in as much detail as any government can give when (a) it may or may not be the government to implement the changes and (b) the other side will not enter into any negotiations about what stand it will take on debt and assets.
The one thing we will not have after 2014, or 2016 in what we have now.
The union will not carry on as before. People now know too much about it.
That is the disaster scenario.
I expect you'll say (
How else do you raise people's conciousness about what they have to lose?
For it is not the status quo we defend, for there is no status quo, what we defend is what we have always stood for, an inclusive and not exclusive society. It is the something most Scot's seem to recognise in their water.
We do not hate or refute anyone much. We willl, hopefully, never change.
Oops! Many words missing, but I trust you get the gist?
We have 9 months to convince people that one of the reasons that the No campaign will not give any details of what is on offer after a no vote, is that it is too horrible to advertise.Delete
more of the same austerity; more money being pumped into London on the pretence of "trickle down"; more grandiose attempts to pretend that Britain is more than a holiday destination for rich Chinese; more xenophobia; exit from EU (and consequent removal of companies using Britain as a springboard to the market); reduction of powers for Edinburgh and increase in powers for local councils, thereby trying to remove the sense of Scottish unity and identity.
It's not a pretty thought, and it's not one that they want to shout about. The are relying on the timidity of the people and of course their faithful followers in the press who can expect honours and wealth from a grateful government which will hand our peerages and knighthoods, companions of honour and PCs like mad.
Lord Paul Dacre...
Better Together responded by saying, erm, well we will look at some more powers; more responsibility; erm, but we can't say exactly what.ReplyDelete
It's not surprising that Better Together don't have a plan/scenario for what happens after a no vote because that would entail Labour and Tory issuing what would effectively be a joint manifesto for Scotland.
From a Scottish perspective that doesn't seem an insurmountable problem because they are already working together with Labour fronting a Tory donor funded organisation with strategy papers produced by the Tory government but it would mean that they would have to work together in England to produce that manifesto and more importantly be seen working together.
That would be a big problem as they operate in a political world where they have to exaggerate the small differences between the parties so working together is politically impossible for them in the South.
Rather than a manifesto they should just issue a short joint statement in Scotland:
Tuition fees, NHS privatisation, Water privatisation, funding cuts in Barnett, no more free personal care, nukes on the Clyde, you don't get the oil. That would cover most of it nicely.
Yes, they could have written that... along with benefit cuts, pension cuts and never ending austerity (for the masses).Delete
Blair and Brown have done their job. They have wrecked the 'Auld Enemy' completely by massive immigration and debt. There is no money or future there. Scotland has a population of 5 million a density of 40 people per Sq Km England is 420 per Sq Km. The English do not have the guts to repatriate so the Scots in London etc. are safe in their jobs and will not be swelling Scotland's population soon. The English have to borrow to keep their massive population and if Scotland gets dragged in then Scotland, Wales and NI will have to contribute. The well is dry--move on.ReplyDelete
Whilst our ancient warriors failed Brown/Blair succeeded--time to withdraw to our own borders.
If England repatriated the country would collapse completely.Delete
It has really been dependent on migrant labour since the end of the second war.
However, it will have to repatriate if it comes out of the EU, so I say to my English friends, and there are many, for heaven's sake get your central heating and your bathrooms and kitchens seen to while there are still plumbers in your country.
If you leave it till it has withdrawn from the EU, you'll be flat out of luck...
What you have written is absolute tripe. The Engish are, as a people, far better than you portray them. I am, ridicuously perhaps, fond of a lot of Asian Londoners. Mainly because I know them, and interact with them, unllike your good self. They are not my enemy. They are, largely, my friends. It would not take 'guts' - as you see it - to 'repatriate', (another evil word), my chums. It would allow racist people to accommodate their prejudice. Which appears to be 'heavy weather' for your good self.
Do me a favour and stop pretending to have a clue about what you are talking about?
I am frankly disgusted by you.
It is really not about targetting other people. I will repeat that many of my chums are English. I do not see them as any different from me, alas they have no upcoming referendum.
You’re absolutely right there. Our argument isn't with the bulk of the English people, Doug. I lived in England and have lots of friends there, many of whom wish us the best of luck in our quest.Delete
Some of my closest friends too are Eastern European or Asian. I couldn't wish for better mates than them. They are simply great people.
Of course English, Bulgarians, Scots, Poles, Lithuanians, Swiss, Greenlanders, Malays, Indians Uruguayans ...there are bad ones as well as good ones.
There are some that I’d be happy to deport… but I know quite a few Scots I'd like to deport.
I simply can’t see what all the fuss is about. Race, religion, abilities, colour, sex, sexuality… come on, this is 2014.
We live in a world where people should be equal, and a world where is is now nothing to cross continents.
I have among my friends Hindus, Jews, Muslims, Catholics, and even a guy who is a Mormon.
We’ve heard little else the last few days except how many Romanians or Bulgarians are going to settle in England. And of course thanks to our racist and xenophobic press we are told there are all here to leech off our system. That’s the system that is systematically killing off all the poor.
We need to remember that there are over a million Brits in Spain alone. Most of them are retired and put a huge strain on the Spanish health service, and that all over Europe, Brits who have a bit of get up and go, have got up and gone.
Before that is the 60s and 70s, and possibly even before, many people upped and went to America, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, because they could.
You’d think everyone only came to the UK.
The English ened to do something about their terrible electoral system which is unequal, undemocratic and corrupt. They need to rid themselves of a corrupt and totally undemocratic house of aristos and bishops, and ensure that their head of state has NO power at all, except to open things.
An they too need their own government, and some choice between the two parties that they elect.
Yeah its not rocket science to know that if a no vote is returned on Sept 19th, that the Westminster wrecking ball will swing into action, with the likes of the Barnett Formula and Holyroods powers first to feel the force, are Scots really so gullible to vote no in the hope of receiving many goodies if we obey Cameron and Co, I bloody well hope not.ReplyDelete
It remains to be seen, of course, but I doubt it.Delete
On the other hand we have to put up with the BBC and the London based press lying through their arses.