In fairness Labour was whipped to vote against. It may be that Union Jacket man was ill, or otherwise engaged. 54 SNP members voted against.
It is, though, incredible that this Tory government is going to take £30 a week away from some of the most vulnerable people in the country in order to help pay off the debt incurred by incompetent greedy fat cat bankers and their likes.
Still, when they told us we were Better Together they must have known what they were talking about, huh? I'm sure one day it will all become clear. Maybe what they meant was that THEY were better if we were together...
Here's just a small selection of the rich who voted to do the poorest and most vulnerable out of money they desperately need.
"this Tory government is going to take £30 a week away from some of the most vulnerable people in the country in order to help pay off the debt incurred by incompetent greedy fat cat bankers and their likes."
ReplyDeletedisingenuous stuff Tris.
You seem to be a nice lady. I like you.
Delete"disingenuous"? Dean, can you explain where Munquin is being dishonest or deceitful?
ReplyDeleteIt is dishonest to pretend that the banks alone caused the staggering levels of debt we have to burden today. Household and individual indebtedness was huge immediately prior to the crash.
DeleteFurther, the statistic of £30 is disputed, and shouldn't be presented as an absolute fact.
I said bankers ..."and their likes"
DeleteIt was largely the financial sector that got us in the mess we are in and despite the passage of time, are still in.
I think that this was down to Gordon Brown being determined not to live up to the reputation that Labour had got in the dim and distant past, of being bad for the City and the money making that Mrs Thatcher encouraged.
He bent over backwards to give them as much freedom as possible, along the lines of Wall Street. He was determined that London would continue to be among the top 5 financial centres of the world. And the only way to do that was to allow them so much rope that in teh end they were bound to hang themselves.
Brown created a boom based on borrowed money. Hague, IDS, Something of the night and Eton Boy did and said nothing to discourage this.
Once upon a time when you went for a loan or a mortgage, you had to jump through hoops to show that you were capable of paying it back. If you got overdrawn you had a letter from the manager summonsing you to a meeting in his office.
In countries like Germany you don't get a credit card unless you can prove that you are financially responsible. here they hand them out like sweeties at a kids party.
I have been dealing with people in their late teens and early 20s with massive debt on credit cards and store cards and bank loans. Unemployed and unable to take a job that paid less than £400 a week, because their debt repayment was so high if they were working.
So yes, they are to blame too, as are the people who re mortgaged their homes every few years and took holidays with the money, or bought new cars, or a new wardrobe.
But a sensible country would have had regulations about that. Sensible banks would have said no to children with credit cards. Sensible banks would have not lent 110% or even 120% of the value of a home. Sensible financiers would have known that house prices just couldn't possibly keep on going up so they would have stopped the mortgaging, but there was a load of money in it, so they didn't, and no one made them.
If they had known that THEY would pay if they went broke, the banks would have been more prudent. But they knew they were too big to fail.
And they knew that while they had privatised their profits they could happily socialise their losses and go on taking eye watering bonuses, 10 times a doctor's annual salary.
The idiot Brown talked non stop about prudence, while going on a wild splurge. And I never heard a Tory complain, not for a second.
To be fair, the only complaint I heard came from a Liberal Democrat. Dr Cable.
I've not heard the £30 figure being disputed. Perhaps you can enlighten me.
tris
ReplyDeleteAnd if the snp had won the Referendum the cuts they would of imposed due to having no money
would make Cameron's austerity look like manna from heaven....
yes the cuts would have been massive. Cuts to wars and bombing, cuts to funding London and SE infrastructure, cuts to paying for debt that Scotland didn't accrue or benefit from, cuts to unelected parliamentarians,cuts to refurbishing Westminster, cuts to selling off national assets at a discount to your discount to your cronies.
DeleteYes there would be massive cuts indeed.
Our share of *not* paying for Trident would easily have covered it - and more.
DeleteNico,
DeleteYou seem to take a perverse delight in crowing about a deficit, based on one year only, due to the fall in oil prices. Consider how much better off Scotland would have been if Labour and their Tory allies had not creamed off 300 billion in North Sea revenue in order to pay for, among others, weapons that could never be used and murdering foreign civilians. Are you happy to see Labour standing shoulder to shoulder in the lobbies with the Tories to the detriment of the poor?
brownlie
DeleteNo I take a delight in the outright lies of Alex salmond ( do you remember him ?? )and the snp saying how wunnerfall and rich Scotland would be.....Under the snp dictat
Others disagreed and were viciously attacked by the cybernats called horrid names had their patriotism
impugned....
People were frightened to put NO posters in the window
and were being hounded day after day by the snp goons
banging on the door at all times of the day and night
(smiling like a bunch of demented moonies )
And now the Scottish economy has tanked in contradiction
of all the snp predictions/promises .
Still the nat extremists such as yerself and others hold
the snp party line and deny reality as usual.
BUT YOU LOT BEST UNDERSTAND THOSE WHO SAID NO TO THE SNP
AND YES TO THE UNION ARE STILL IN THE ASCENDANT AND FACTS
SUCH AS THESE WILL BE TAKEN AS PROOF OF THE UNCERTAINTY OF
A MAD RUSH TO INDEPENDENCE....
AND IN THIS GAME OF PERCENTAGES YOU SNP LOT CAN ILL AFFORD THESE DAMMING FACTS WHICH HAVE BEEN REVEALED
The "facts", designed by Tory Ian Lang to be damning, are "facts" as the current situation is. That's under a Tory government with a massive commitment to interfere in any war or situation they are instructed to by Washington.
DeleteThey bare no relationship with the figures an independent Scotland would produce.
As I've said before, you seem to prefer living under semi permanent Tory government designed for the South East of England, than under a Scottish government which would nearly always, if not always, be left of centre.
What is it Niko, that you like so much about being ruled by Tories or Crypto Tories, with the Saxe Cobergs at the top of the pile?
Meanwhile, back in reality. If Scotland's a basket case, Westminster made it so. It ain't a basket case, no thanks to Westminster, nor the Tories of all hues.
Deletehttp://www.debt-clock.org/
DeleteHoly shiiiiiiitt, now Westminster really knows how to run a country; my arse!
DeleteWhat do you think of that lads? Eh? Dean? Niko?
Theres no bread...let them eat cake.
ReplyDeleteI can't remember the exact number, but there is a certain percentage of the population that is supposed to be psychopaths or have psychopathic tendencies.
They all seem to have found a home in the Tory Party bless them.
I don't feel like I need to say anything, because you guys have answered perfectly.
ReplyDeleteDean: you need to explain why I've been disingenuous. The Tories are reducing benefits that help vulnerable people in a bad time of their lives, by £30 a week. That might not seem a massive amount to an MP, who is off to get yet another pay rise of £1000 a year, but believe me, it is a massive amount to someone living on around £100 a week.
Niko. I've already pointed you in the direction of a relatively learned piece analysing the ERS figures. Maybe, before you rely on these figures, without analysis, too heavily, you should recall that the GERS system was introduced by Tory Ian Lang, as a way (he admitted himself) of showing Scotland in a bad light. In short it's a Tory plot against Scotland. Lang you'll remember, was a slavering devotee of Thatcher, even more so than Rifkind or Forsyth. He hung on her every word.
Even Brian Taylor of BBC Scotland has admitted that.
http://wingsoverscotland.com/one-last-thing-to-remember/
PP: Absolutely. GERS figures include the current system of government where most of our income is derived from London, and much of our spending comes from there too.
DeleteTo analyse the figures properly you have to look at what would have been spent had we not been tied to an imperial power whose foreign and defence policies are largely made in Washington.
Conan: As you say and we could have found work for the Jackie Baillie black hole in employment, maybe doing something a bit more useful.
DeleteJohn: I reckon we had a wonderful chance to change everyone's life for the better here, and they blew all the money on paying for unemployment, which they created, and on beefing up their military presence. The forth largest spend in the world for a small country, amazing.
If they had less of a passion for running the world and a bit more COMpassion for their own people, maybe life would be better here.
On the other hand maybe some of them get a perverse pleasure from killing people with brown skins.
PS: Churchill is one of their heroes. He once said, "I don't care how many heathens have to be killed as long as His Majesty's government's policies are put in place" ... or words to that effect, when speaking of the Middle East. Maybe it's genetic in a certain type of Tory. (And, come to that, Blairites).
Niko: http://wingsoverscotland.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/cuthbert0.jpg
DeleteThe exact words of Mr Lang.
You cant blame Torys for voting this way. It is inbreeding. Labour MPs have no such excuse.
ReplyDeleteLabour have to appeal to the Blairites as well as those foolish enough to those who, despite all the evidence to the contrary still believe that they are the people's party. You could probably find one still howling at the moon on here...
DeleteIt seems to me they are still the people's party.
DeleteIt is just that the "people" are now largely bankers, brokers, and City chappies of the hipster variety.
Tris
ReplyDeleteThe Tories are scum, we know that but people still vote for them and I just can't understand why anyone would. Even yesterday watching the 3 Tory Parties react with glee the recent GERS figures while being predictable shoudl also tell people all they need to know. Rennie was his usual self sadly,Mr Rennie said:
"This is not good news for Scotland. Nicola Sturgeon's economic credibility has now been smashed to smithereens. These devastating GERS figures call into question her judgement on the nation's finances and the oil industry which are two critically important responsibilities for any Scottish First Minister.
"Of course she was wildly optimistic on her projections for income from North Sea oil. Yet her fatal error of judgement was recommending that Scotland should be independent even though its finances would be based on such a volatile and unpredictable source of income.
"Thank goodness Scottish people had the great sense to reject her reckless recommendation. It means we can now focus on making Scotland the best again on education, environment, health and civil liberties."
The man is a plank, what don't they get that the YES vote was about democracy not money. If they can't see the deficit in this country around or so called democracy then everyone of them need to be voted out of office. Happy to punish the poorest, happy to appluad bad news for Scotland even though GERS tends to be guess work anyway. Happy to talk Scotland down at every opportunity, Britnats are sick and don't get it, you can make your point without smiling and running your country down, all you do is make people feel less confident, less able, less worthy, less ambitious. You strip them of their self worth and self esteem, you rob them of their dignity all in the name of some brainwashed loyalty to a system and a country that could not give a shit about them and uses them at every turn to keep the less than 1% where they want to be. It makes me sick.
Bruce
430,000 Scottish voters are "scum" according to you? That comment of yours merely shows your contempt for nearly half a million Scots. Shame on you.
DeleteBrilliant Bruce.
DeleteWhat everyone has to know about GERS is that it is largely (as you say) guess work, set up by the most horrible of the Scottish Viceroys, Ian lang, a Thatcher sycophant, and designed to make Scotland look weak and helpless.
You make a really good point. It was never ALL about money, although that is something that they could never see. Willie Rennie shows his true Tory colours if he thinks that all we cared about was money. He also seems to feel that we are better run by a Tory government than by the people voted for in Scotland.
Well, maybe that's OK for him. He has a very comfortable salary.
The way things are going we could have another 10 years of these Tories. it's happened before. And he thinks that that is a good deal for Scotland. Yes, you're right. He's a bloody plank.
I hope he loses his seat. Maybe, just maybe, then you guys will get a leader with soem common sense and an element of Scottishness about him.
Bruce was talking about the party, not necessarily teh people who vote for them.
DeleteHe goes on to say he doesn't understand why anyone would vote for them.
Greed...
DeleteGood answer.
DeleteSCUM, could it be, Scottish Conservative and Unionist Members?
DeleteManifesto, not members.
DeleteDon't tell me the Chieftain o' the Puddin' Race abstained again! Probably too busy playing Candy Crush.
ReplyDeleteI think he's going for the record Mr M.
DeleteThe main problem with the benefits system is the bureaucracy, and those scum - and I mean scum - who fraudulently claim benefits for which they are not entitled to.
ReplyDeleteAs previously mentioned, I am helping someone deal with an issue over benefits, with critical and superb help from CAB - those people should be running the country, not bloody politicians. The amount of evidence required is incredible, and the issue I'm helping with requires more than being asked. This has dragged on for almost 6 months, causing untold and unnecessary stress.
The way the Tories are implementing the changes are wrong. But the system has grown out of control and needs independent auditors to urgently assess the process. For starters, resources need to be put in place before cuts are implemented - for example, Bedroom Tax - more housing should have been in place beforehand.
zog
Of course, Zog, it goes without saying that folk that lie to claim benefits... work and sign on; lie about symptoms; live with people and don't let the DWP know, etc... are despicable.
DeleteBut I think that the bulk of people are on benefits because they need them. The UN and the Council of Europe have said that UK pensions and benefits are beneath a decent standard. And the hoops they make sick people jump through to get the inadequate benefits they pay are ridiculous.
They used to have a team of fraud people working in each jobcentre
but they paid them off to save money. Then they relied on the public phoning in, but frankly most of that was revenge attacks by neighbours or jealous ex partners.
I worked for DWP briefly on a temporary contract at the very bottom of the pay scale, barely enough to live on... and I remember the manager saying, that it was our responsibility to report anyone who we thought might be fiddling.
Risking life and limb for £8,000 a year. Yeah right.
Some common sense would be handy. As you say, if you are going to impose a bedroom tax system, there have to be suitable houses for single people or single couples to live in, and there are next to none. Except in the private sector and they are often much more expensive.
Never mind how much it costs to move, especially if you have health problems and can't do it yourself.
The whole system doesn't work. Its been a mess for years. I remember when I was a student applying for Unemployment Benefit every summer, knowing the claim would be rejected but not the claim for Sup Ben. Waste of time going through the former claim, but keeping a bureaucrat busy and the postman too.
DeleteThe welfare system and the tax system are a mess. Neither are simple. Neither encourage honesty or work. Both are gamed by all manner of people.
I employ an accountant to minimise my tax bill. So do all the self employed. So do Amazon and Starbucks and a host of others. And thats just the legal end of keeping the tax down. Do you think everyone declares every tip they get? Every few quid hawking stuff on ebay, or at a car boot? All the scrap they trade in?
The whole system - and we have one of the most complex tax codes in the world ( where millions are spent finding out whether a Jaffa cake is a cake or a biscuit! )- is rife with loopholes and allowances and special interests.
If you leave your wallet on the lawn and someone steals it, who is at fault? Just the thief? If you have a welfare system which is daft enough to give child benefit to rented kids. Just who is at fault?
If you can pay 10% tax on a hefty chunk of income because you are a director of a limited company, or 20% of the same income on PAYE, is your first instinct to stay on PAYE?
It needs radical overhaul. Both welfare and taxation. And some benefits need to be weaned out altogether - housing benefit top of that list ( or landlord subsidy if you prefer).
We will always have freeriders. It is human nature to maximise one's personal benefit. Oh and that includes sitting at your desk all day on facebook when you are meant to be working. But this leaky bucket we have is a shambols. Complain all you like, but please direct it at the right target.
Saor Alba
I agree that a very good deal of that. I don't blame people for trying to pay as little tax as possible. If I had a choice I would. I condemn fraud whether it's the ex Eton/Oxford at it, or the chav from the other kind of estate.
DeleteNot sure how you could remove housing benefits without either putting up wages, pensions/benefits by vast amounts, or having the very most fierce rent and council tax controls.
£60 a week benefits doesn't go a long way to paying an £100 a week rent in a place like Dundee, and a great deal less farther in Edinburgh.
You provide public housing and rent it on a percentage of income basis. When someone has the income to find its cheaper to rent elsewhere/ or buy, they move on.
DeleteI do not want to abandon anyone. But I do not want to enrich landlords at the taxpayers expense either.
S A
Interesting idea SA
DeleteBit of a stushie over Question Time from Dundee? Munquin too busy looking for soppy snaps to take part! Heh heh!
ReplyDeleteRegrettably Munguin was unable to return from Val d'Isère, where he was catching up on a little apès ski.
DeleteHe delegated John Swinney to do it for him.
He may have taken the odd snap when he was there.
He's thinking of dropping on on your wee island soon. He's heard some you can get some good pictures up there that are particularly soppy. I'll send on his list of refreshment requirements.
:)
PS: The Ginger Dug's got a good take on it; Dundee has recently become very gentrified. Doesn't one know!
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