David Cameron and Alex Salmond were both invited to write a piece for the Sunday Herald, explaining their views on independence. A page was left for each leader to fill. Both Downing Street adn Bute House got the same information.
Bute House filled a page with reasons to vote for independence. Downing Street managed 132 words.
The Herald asked them for more, but Downing Street didn't bother to respond, so the herald printed empty space where the prime minister's argument might have been.
No wonder the man won't openly debate with the First Minister. 132 words doesn't go a long way in a debate.
Even then what he said, although thankfully without any sign of UN, EU, G8 references, was trite meaningless rubbish which wouldn't stand up to any analysis. See for yourself.
David Cameron: In a year from now, people living in Scotland will be making
a choice which could radically change their country for ever. Scotland’s future
will be in Scotland’s hands.
Munguin's Republic: Which, with respect, is exactly where it should be.
DC: I hope passionately that Scotland decides to remain
within our United Kingdom.
MR: Well, you are one man, but as you have pointed out when you have been trying to duck out of a face to face debate with the First Minister, you are an Englishman and it isn't really anything to do with you. It's a decision for Scots to make. Your opinion is as important as anyone else's in the world, but not any more so. Of course, as the Prime Minister of the UK, you have a vested personal interest in not going down in history as the man who lost Scotland
DC: What we have works, and it works well.
MR: Does it? For whom does it work? Does it work well for people whose taxes go to pay for things that they may never see, and which don't do them any good? London Olympics, High Speed trains? Does it work for the average Scot paying more tax than people in other parts of the UK, and getting less back? Does it work for the people in certain parts of the central belt who have a lower life span than people living in the Gaza strip. No. It doesn't. It works nicely for you and your elite in Oxfordshire and the other home counties, who are being subsidised by us.
DC: Ours is a unique union of nations. It’s a union of people
too. And together we've achieved so much.
MR: Why is it unique as a union of nations? It was certainly contrived, but I'm sure many others were. It certainly wasn't democratically arrived at, but I am sure that that is hardly unique. There's nothing unique about two countries being in a union, and to a certain extent it is obvious that the peoples of the two nations will in some way be affected by that union. Again I fail to see any uniqueness. Of course, it has been long lived, but time alone doesn't actually bind people in any real sense of the word. And what did we achieve, and was it necessarily because we were together that we achieved i?. You chunter on regularly about us fighting Fascism together, but we did that with nations from all over the world, not least the USSR and USA, neither of which are in a union with us. Indeed the second one was and left!
DC: We are a family of nations within one United Kingdom. Now
is not the time to reduce that relationship to one of second cousins, once
removed.
MR: Why? What are we at the moment? Don't tell me we are equal partners? Brothers? If so why is it that over and over again Scotland votes against your policies, but has them imposed. Royal Mail privatisation...Bedroom Tax. Scotland opposes and Westminster imposes. We have a Tory government with one Scottish Tory MP out of 59! The Scandinavian system is one of, call them 'sister' nations or 'cousin' nations, working together. But they aren't ruled by the same government. They don't even have the same systems of government.
DC: The 18th September, 2014 is Scotland’s date with destiny.
It will be time for Scotland to decide.
MR: Yep, we know. It's in my diary. Thanks.
DC: The best of Scotland and the best of British, or a leap
into the unknown?
MR: And is the future with the UK not unknown? Who would have predicted in 2007 the mess that 2008 would bring. Certainly not you or your party who were enjoying the loads of money culture that abandoning banking regulations allowed!
DC: Scotland’s future is in Scotland’s hands.
MR: Aye, you said. You'd think having only expended a few minutes to write a 100 or so words, that you might have taken the trouble to make sure you didn't repeat yourself.
Like it! Shared
ReplyDeleteThank you ...:)
DeleteI bet DC now wishes he had gotten someone to write a bit more for him.
ReplyDeleteYes Marcia, I bet he does. It's pretty humiliating that he ended up in this mess, but from what I can see the Herald did warn Downing Street what the situation was. So once again, it is his incompetence (or that of his team) that has put him in this spot of bother.
DeleteI expect that the Herald could have filled the page with something else, but I expect they were a pissed off with him from having put so little into it.
In a way it's an appropriate get back for the "equality of space" demanded by BT... in parks, at fetes, etc., although I'm sure the Herald don't look at it that way.
As I said, not only should he have (or someone have) written more, but it would have been nice if there had been some content, instead of the usual crap we get over again from them.
The only conclusion that I can draw is that they think we should stay together because we are a family and we have done a lot of stuff together...
Yeah, that's it.
As if that wasn't enough Tris here's a piece from Stu who has written about how influential Scotland has been since the 1950's in deciding the colour of the government at Westminster.
ReplyDeleteLet's just say that it appears to be the case that Scots voting in General Elections have voted Tory for 6 years out of 53. (9.3%)Meanwhile Scotland has had a Tory government for 33 years. (52.4%) Thanks to Stu where I got the figures.
http://www.wingsoverscotland.com/the-useless-samaritans/#comment-541899
DC: I hope passionately that Scotland decides to remain within our United Kingdom.
We all know why he hopes Scotland remains part of the UK don't we?
He needs somewhere to park his WMD's!
As we all know there is no where in England he can park his WMD's up because all suitable sites are too near highly populated areas. Ach don't worry though the WMD's are safe enough in Scotland, it's not as if they are anywhere near a place of HIGH population now is it?
DC: What we have works, and it works well.
Nice to see he is using the ROYAL 'we' here!
Interesting figures Arbroath.
DeleteI wish all the people who are complaining about this fearful government of chancers, spivs, posh boys and would be aristos would see that we can't get rid of them on our own.
Even when we get Labour now, it's the Labour that was created by the heir to Thatcher, the creepy money-making spiv, independent school boy, Tory Blur.
Think I have to disagree with you there Tris.
DeleteThink you'll find a YES vote in 2014 WILL get rid of the Tories for good. Hell the way that Labour are crumbling away and disappearing into the deep crevasse of incompetence a YES vote might see them disappear for good as well. lol
At least we have the good folks of Labour for Indy who at least know what Labour stood for and are prepared to return THEIR Labour to these wholesome values.
OOops my mistake... I meant that the other way round...
DeleteWho's an idiot?
erm.....David Cameron by chance? lol
Deletelol
DeleteOh there was only one comment there.... you've stopped stuttering!
I know I have absolutely no idea what's going on here at all. I always hit the publish button once, honest it is hit only ONCE but my posts appear TWICE. Are you sure that GCHQ or NSA are not intercepting my posts? lol
DeleteIn a word...No. :)
DeleteBut they must have got bored, because there's only one now, so... unless of course they are on their way to arrest you, and got lost!
Just in case you thought it was just the Tories or Labour who dropped all their principles and ethics the minute they stepped through the front door of number 10 here's a fine example of how the LibDems protect their principles. Oops sorry I forgot they already dropped that pretence when they went into number 10 along side the Tories didn't they!
ReplyDeletehttp://newsnetscotland.com/index.php/scottish-economy/8030-lib-dem-support-for-nuclear-power-punches-hole-in-partys-green-credentials-say-environmentalists
Goodness me... the Liberals have done a U-turn...
DeleteWhatever next?
Oh yeah, Tuesday!
I can't understand why they had their conference here. They were given a sound thrashing at the election and have become a minority party, only 5 years after being part of the government.
There can be few Scottish Liberals left apart from the slavishly faithful (which I know every party has).
And Glasgow is a long way from their heartlands of Cornwall and the the south coast.
No wonder cabinet ministers have been playing to empty rooms.
Its all wearing thin on this voter and observers mind.
ReplyDeleteWe've had a phoney war/campaign up till now with both sides content to throw as much lies, obfuscation and confusion at each other as possible... and the result?
No change.
Yes averaging between 33-38% and No around 40-45%
In short public views have remained unchanged due to the total absence of any kind of grand campaign.
Dave-Camerons refusal to defend the UK as its PM is just another reflection of the shockingly bad levels of debate and discussion.
I think that the campaign was started far too early.
DeleteOK, the government had to announce that, in accordance with its manifesto, there would be a referendum in 2014, or whenever parliament decided.
I wish that that had been an end at that time, and that the real campaign started now.
Joe Public must be sick to the back teeth of it. Although, of course, in certain cases, Joe is still blissfully unaware of it.
But to reach the people it needed to reach, one year's campaigning on both sides would have been sufficient.
I'd say that there has been a move towards support for independence, but it is hard to tell with opinion polls showing widely different support, mainly based on weighting and the kind of questions asked.
I can see that Cameron was in a difficult position here. If he had had someone write a great long screed, and argument, then he would have given fuel to Yes campaigners who say he should debate face to face with Alex Salmond. If he can say it on paper, why would he not say it live?
We all know he doesn't want to do this for a variety of reasons.
So he said nothing. Is he saying, no point in me debating; these are my arguments: We have history together. We should stay together because we have achieved great things together...
Easy to say when there is no one next to you saying:
300 years history together and a pile before that separate. And... so what great things did we achieve as one country that we couldnt have as 2 separate countries working together, like Britain and America for example, or Britain and France?
I sympathise with the No campaign. It has to a certain extent to be about negativity. The only positive thing they can say is that things will be the same. That for a lot of people is a pretty dire future. So they have to say that it will be worse. They come over then as being naysayers.
I'd hate to have to defend the status quo.
To be fair Tris I think going early like this may actually turn into being a master stroke. The reason I think this is because the YES campaign know that the NO side have no argument that can stand up to any scrutiny as to why we're better together. Therefore they know that Joe public will be sick to the back teeth of all Better Together's lies, deceit and misinformation by the time we get round to voting. More over come September 18th 2014 I reckon Better Together will be the biggest laughing stock in British political history, come to think about it they are already well on their way there at the moment!
DeleteWe all know that the government's White paper is due out in November. Once this has been released then we will have the answers to folks worries and fears, NOT BT generated false fears. By going early so to speak the YES campaign have drawn all, or at least most, of Better Together's ammunition and it has been the biggest amount of damp squips going. I fully expect things to start ratcheting up a few notches once the White paper has been released.
Priceless....David Cameron says it all in that blank space!
ReplyDeleteJust think of all the trite rubbish he could have spewed about Scotland punching above it's weight in the deabte over Syria's chemical weapons because it spends £100 billion on nuclear weapons as part of the UK. As if Mr Putin would have ignored David Cameron any the less because Scotland was no longer a member of that greatest family union of nations since the Big Bang! How much less of a nano-second of real international respect and attention does Scotland not hosting that 100 billion white elephant lose us?
One could say that he spoke his mind Munguin.
ReplyDeleteJust goes to orove Alex is bigger liar with
ReplyDeleteMore tosh to spout out. Nun of it true
Anyway Alex is no moreor less than a jumped
Up leader of a middling excutive Cameron in this
Respect is correct Salmond is not worthy of a one
To one debate with the Primeminister of the whole UK deano
You must stop reading the Beano
Where you got yor stats from
65% no 37%yes is the current reliable projection
Depends on the poll. It is worth noting the only polling agency which got the Holyrood 2011 result correct (i.e. overall SNP majority) is the only pollster showing a lead for 'Yes'
DeleteFood for thought.
Anon:
DeleteWell, of course only the president of the USA is a more important person that the prime minister of the UK. Well all know that he is damned near being god.
It's a pity the UK pms think of themselves in that light, mainly because they give the rest of the world such a lot to laugh at.
Still, Cameron is, to use your analogy of business, the CEO of the UK government which is determined to keep the UK together, although he has no official place in the NO campaign. Alex is CEO of the Scottish government, determined on independence, and he too has no official place in the YES campaign.
Cameron can make things happen in Westminster; Salmond in Holyrood.
You can say Alex should debate with Darling, but it would be unfair and uneven, as Darling is an opposition MP in London with no power at all to make things happen.
Mr Cameron says he is passionate about Scotland being part of the UK, although he has no concrete reasons for this, except I venture to suggest that his reasons include:
*He wants the extra money we put into the UK;
*He doesn't want to be the PM to lose Scotland;
*He fears that if the UK loses Scotland other richer countries may think that it's time to remove the Uk from G8 or UNSC...
I don't know where you got your "reliable current projection". Could you furnish me with a link please?
As I said Dean, there are many different polls.
DeleteMost of them have agendas.
Polls, good or bad, have massive possibilities for error.
So, the poll that got it right last time, might get it right again...or it might get it wrong.
Food for thought, yes. But only an appetizer for the real deal.
I don't know where you got your "reliable current projection". Could you furnish me with a link please?
DeleteDon't worry Tris, I've found the link.......it's the Daily Mail!!!
Anon if you want to go around quoting figures at folks you MUST provide the sources of your figures otherwise you appear to be plucking your figures out of thin air.
DeleteTHIS is how people normally do things.
A recent poll for the Sunday Times found that when pushed the 'undecideds' would vote YES giving the YES vote 48% against 52% for NO. This is quoted in the following article.
http://newsnetscotland.com/index.php/referendum/8031-polls-qextremely-encouragingq-say-snp-with-one-year-to-go
What is also interesting is the polling company that carried out this poll was Panel base, the ONLY polling company that got the result of the 2011 election correct by predicting an SNP majority.
You will also notice that the 48%/52% is well within the normal 5% error that polling companies use so with this result alone we are looking at a range of 43%/57% for YES/NO through to 53%/47% for YES/NO. This is why the Better Together squad are getting more worried each and every day as evident by their more outlandish 'claims!'
Bang on post Arbroath...
DeleteI hate to be the bearer of further bad news Anon but have you seen this?
Deletehttp://www.thecourier.co.uk/news/politics/game-on-independence-poll-puts-yes-campaign-in-front-1.125982
Think you'll find the latest Panelbase poll, you know the ONLY polling company to correctly predict the 2011 election result, shows YES on 44%, NO on 43% and DK's on 13%. This is a SEVEN per cent INCREASE on the position for YES since the last poll in July. Now excuse me for thinking here, but this is now TWO polls from Panelbase in a row that have shown movement of voters towards voting YES. *starts playing theme tune to Jaws*
clutching at straws aren't you
Deletehttp://ukpollingreport.co.uk/scottish-independence-referendum
(*) NB – Panelbase/SNP question was asked after other questions that could have had a potential skewing affect
snp obfuscation again wee shame people with some intelligence and morals were able to review there unreliable data.
There are 6 MPs sitting as independents. 2 accused of sexual violence. 1 headbutted someone. Another faces allegations of corruption.
ReplyDeletebettertogether?
They are an unlovely lot, Dean.
DeleteMind, it is fair to say that, on the other hand, there is Bill Walker!
But no, as you know, I don't think we are better together. Better as mates, or if Cameron wants, second cousins, working together, but not bound by the same laws, not bound by the same attitudes to world power and policing, not bound by the same attitude to social security, to taxation and to spending priorities.
The A9 upgrade is more important to me that HS2 to Leeds!
Just in case anyone was left in any doubt about the neutrality of dear old BBC check these out!
ReplyDeletehttps://twitter.com/graemeinlondon/status/379638381371994112
https://twitter.com/graemeinlondon/status/379639614069559296
BBC is impartial.......impartial my aunt fanny!
Who the hell thinks that coaching audience members of a debate is impartial?
Only some complete incompetent bastard in the BBC could come up with this wheeze and think they'd get away with it!
The BBC staff on the fronline are all vetted by MI5 and some are recruited just for this purpose. The British Regime is as paranoid as the US and the old USSR about people willing to undermine there 'right' to rule without dissent which is what Margo was on about.
DeleteThe BBC needs to get out of our referendum as they cannot be trusted in anyway to play fare.
The media is to blame for the state of Scottish Labour
Why are they keeping quiet on what is happening in Fukushima.
This wouldn't have anything to do with it by any chance CH?
Deletehttp://newsnetscotland.com/index.php/scottish-economy/8030-lib-dem-support-for-nuclear-power-punches-hole-in-partys-green-credentials-say-environmentalists
We need an answer to that.
DeleteAre they trying to make good television... novel idea... or are they coaching the no side because they know that they have little to go on.
Racists????????????
When you have Tony Benn and Margaret Curren despairing that their mother/kids would be foreigners? What a bloody joke.
It has an awful lot to with the privatised secretive nuclear industry Arb which we pay for in so many ways.
DeleteThe quality of most of the politicians in the UK is abysmal Tris I am surprised that some of them can even stoop to tie their own laces.
The other thing they are covering up are the facts on Syria listen to the short Pod-cast with David Malone.
DeleteGolem XIV
I am surprised that some of them can even stoop to tie their own laces.
DeleteThere you go again CH making assumptions about UK politicians. What have I told you before about making these assumptions! lol
You'll be wanting a link next. (Caron's xmas card)
DeleteHave you sent a copy to 10 Downing in a brown envelope without a stamp that way he will be sure to get it and dont forget to put RBS (return By Sea) on the back.
ReplyDeleteHe's a man of few words... almost becoming IDS, the quiet man.
Delete