Friday 2 November 2012


The BBC is reporting that a man who shouted " No ifs, no buts, no public sector cuts" at Cameron while he was making a speech in Glasgow has been given an order to carry out 100 hours of community service.
Stuart Rodger hid in a toilet at the Grand Central Hotel before entering a small room where the prime minister was speaking to Conservatives.
At Glasgow Sheriff Court, Mr Rodger, who used to be a Liberal activist, admitted having behaved in a threatening or abusive manner by violating a security cordon, shouting and failing to desist, attempting to approach Mr Cameron (what a crime) and causing fear and alarm.
He was given a community sentence with the condition he has to carry out 100 hours of community service.
Apparently the so-called ‘security cordon’ was someone asking if he had a pass.
Welcome to Scotland, where we like to pride ourselves on being democratic and relatively egalitarian, but where it is clearly now against the law to shout down Cameron.
OK, I accept that Cameron was speaking to a private gathering of Conservatives and that it was damned rude of Mr Rodger to interrupt. I accept that if he was shouting he may well have put Cameron in a state of fear and alarm, so he shouldn't have done it. But it is surely not a crime equating to 100 hours of community service.
So, because I don't want to appear in Dundee Sheriff Court, I will say quietly and respectfully to Cameron: “Please come back to Scotland as often as you can over the next two years. Make yourself a semi-permanent visitor. And feel free to patronise us in your plummy tones about how of course we COULD manage on our own, but we're so much better with England, because together we can wage wars, blow people up, kill and maim children, threaten folks with nuclear weapons of mass destruction and instruct them how they should be running their countries, all at the same time as making a complete cock up of running our own.
And once you have served your purpose and we have voted for independence you can take your sorry arse and sod off back to London where hopefully you'll be kicked out for having been even more of a joke of a prime minister than Gordon Brown.
Oh and Mr Rodger, if you need a hand with your community service, I'm sure there's quite a few that will be glad to help out.


  1. Careful Tris we shouldn't mock the afflicted. Let's not forget that Cameron is SERIOUSLY afflicted.

    He is afflicted with the misguided idea that we are Better Together.

    He is afflicted with the misguided idea that we all want the replacement Trident nuclear system.

    He is afflicted with the misguided idea that we all want to be at the centre of his next war, as highlighted recently, against Iran.

    He is afflicted with the misguided idea that we all want MORE cuts to the unemployed.

    He is afflicted with the misguided idea that we all want MORE cuts to the infirm.

    He is afflicted with the misguided idea that we all want MORE cuts to the disabled.

    He is afflicted with the misguided idea that we all want MORE cuts to the benefits system.

    He is afflicted with the misguided idea that we all want MORE cuts to child benefits.

    He is afflicted with the misguided idea that we all want MORE cuts to the police service.

    He is afflicted with the misguided idea that we all want MORE privatisation of the N.H.S.

    He is afflicted with the misguided idea that we all want MORE incompetent rail contracts awarded, sorry not awarded.

    He is afflicted with the misguided idea that we all want MORE A.P.D. charged to passengers in Scotland.

    Just a few reasons why we must treat Cameron with kid gloves. We don't want him left feeling like we don't like him. That would just be too terrible to contemplate.

    Awe hell forget all that Tris lets all give him a kicking he'll never forget. :lol:

  2. Nah. If it were Eric Joyce he'd either be nutting someone, or he'd be flat out on the floor...

    Shouldn't old Eric do what McShane has done, and just go?

  3. I've got my steel toe-capped boots at the ready, Arbroath... not that I've a violent Ned or anything, you understand.

    I just dislike him more than I disliked Brown and B£air, and that's going some.

  4. It is a telling and terrible indictment of Scotland society that multi-millionaires cannot sit down, probably at tax-payers expense, to scoff caviare and champagne without being shouted at by plebs. Community service? - hang him for treason, I say!!

  5. Good grief this is appalling. The man deserves a medal. Far as I'm concerned Stuart was already doing the community a service by letting Cameron know what people in Scotland think of him!

  6. Quite so, John. What is the world coming to when plebs don't know their place. Still he'll have the lad for it doubtless. After all HE runs the country.

    Oh, don't you just love humour on a Saturday morning.

  7. LOL Anon... Maybe he could serve the community by routing out some more lying cheating thieving parliamentarians... or get into the BBC and sort out the multi-tiered lazy management that couldn't manage rings of kiddie fiddlers out of their organisation, but preferred to give them tributes?

    Lord knows the community needs some services rendered.

    Maybe this is Cameron's plan:

    (1) Be a hopeless waste of space as a prime minister;

    (2) Make everyone hate you, from the far right to the far left and everyone in between;

    (3) Make it a crime for anyone to tell you what a sad ass loser you are;

    (4) Make all the criminals do community service;

    (5) Sack all the people who we pay to do the community a service

    (6) Give all the spare cash that this saves to friends in the City, thereby ensuring that they keep jobs on the board open for them in the event of them being caught out at whatever they might be up to...

    He's not quite as stupid as he looks and sound.

    BTW: If I fail to answer any more posts it will likely be because I'm doing some community service for all these insults to Botox Boy.

  8. Tris, I thought I'd posted here, but it didn't show up. So I'll try again. You will know the content of my comment before I even post it. But here I go anyway.

    This is what happens when you have no constitution and Bill of Rights which guarantees freedom of speech and expression. When your politicians once elected are sovereign.

    As you suggest Tris, the only possible offense here should be the bypassing of a security perimeter. I'm amazed that there is a crime there called "shouting and failing to desist." Surely an English crime. The Scots would not be so foolish.

    American presidents (and presidential candidates) are confronted with shouting hecklers...often with unfurled signs.....quite often. Sometimes presidents engage them in some dialogue. And sometimes they are simply escorted out of the room. But absent any threatening behavior, they are never charged with anything.

    There is no freedom without a constitution and Bill of Rights. Not a bad thing thing to shout at the PM every chance you get now that I think about it.

    A couple of good presidential examples:

    And Romney in Iowa last summer:

  9. Thing is Danny here in Scotland it is the people of Scotland who are sovereign.

    Cameron is NOT sovereign over us he may like to think that he is but he is not.

    The same goes for her nibs in Buck palace. She is sovereign over England but NOT over Scotland. In fact the proof of this is the deposing of James VII in 1689, only four years after he first took up the role as king of Scots.

    In Scotland our politicians are elected to REPRESENT us and our wishes NOT to rule over us. This is something is all too often forgotten by the politicians at Westminster in London.

  10. I appreciate your comment Arbroath. My post was mostly intended to pursue a running joke between myself and Tris about what I always insist is the superior American constitutional system over the British system of parliamentary sovereignty (as defined by Wikipedia.) ;-)

    So I used the "sovereign" in this context. The suggestion being that the representatives of the people in Parliament can in theory, by a majority vote, make laws which act to restrict the exercise of speech and expression (however defined.) This contrasts with the American system in which the freedom of speech is a constitutional right which even the representatives of the people in Congress cannot modify or restrict by a majority vote. It's a right that is constitutionally guaranteed, and which cannot be altered, except by the laborious super majority system of constitutional amendment. So in this sense, the American constitution is sovereign, and minority rights are assured. Laws of Congress are routinely struck down by the independent judiciary as being unconstitutional.

    It assures that you can't get in trouble with the police for heckling the president. A good thing. But since gun ownership is also a constitutional right, we have something like 400 million guns for our 300 million population. And there's nothing that the majority of the people can do about that, even if they would want to. Not such a good thing when gunfights break out. ;-)

  11. To be fair Tris it probably is a "breach of the peace" which had he been prosecuted under could have seen doing time.

    He does have form in this area of protest and was maybe bound over earlier after he threw a paint bomb at/onto Clegg. He was also LibDem activist so, there is a least on (former) LibDEm who has kept their scruples.

    I am all off giving Cameroon a guid sherrikin but I think it would be better en masse.

    I think everyone is forgetting how easily it would have been to plant a bomb or to conceal a weapon.

    The Polis and Cameroon's Protection Force really have loads of egg on their faces.

  12. Many years ago, i became a criminal. My crime?
    At the time, the TV was showing Madness doing their famous walk that accompanaied their Madness song. You walked close to the person in front with your legs tied into the person in front.
    I'll see if i can find a link.
    Anyway, 7 of us guys were doing the 'Madness walk' on a deserted street. We were heading home after a night in town. A police car pulled up and asked us what we were doing. The explanation about Madness didn't suffice,
    The police car then followed us up the street then stopped again.
    'Why are you walking like that, and why won't you stop when we tell you to?'

    Seven of us were arrested and fined £25 for being 'Drunk and disorderly'.

    Annoying dancing is against the law.

  13. The problem with Dannys assertion of' constitution and Bill of Rights which guarantees freedom of speech and expression'

    Is that you have Cnuts such as Antonin Scalia, Clarence Thomas (uncle tom)etc
    consistently and persistently using judical activism to subvert that said Constitution to a nasty political ideology.
    The founding fathers would have no truck with and would happily bring down

    unless i miss something he did wrongly plead guilty which like weakens your case a bit..........
    and as for hitting Mr Clegg with blue paint.
    entirely understandable and hardly an offence more a act of performance art.


    just to say although not a religious person have said many a fervent prayer for an obama win disappointing though he has been)
    and a loss for the dark soul of the USA the the Republican party has become

  14. juteman

    me mate on the way home from a late night drinking (glug glug glug Burp! Ooops pardon me) out caught short had a pee in a shop doorway.

    Old bill came along and told him to find somewhere else(er too late)and didn't arrest him but did explain.
    If nicked and found guilty would find himself on the sex offenders register.

  15. You shouldn't shout anyone down; that is just rude.

    A matter of good upbringing and manners surely?

  16. Ha ha.. Danny. You did post, and then for some strange reason it disappeared... odd... but I promise, nothing to do with me.


    Hmmm... constitution... yeah yeah yeah.

    Well actually, as I recall Mr Salmond has proposed this for Scotland: a proper written constitution, unlike the daft one that the UK has where they make it up to suit themselves as they go along.

    And we don't have a Bill of Rights in Scotland, although the English have one dating from 1600 and something. (You can imagine what rights that confers, and upon whom).

    There is, of course the European Convention of Human Rights, which David Cameron wants to ditch because it confers rights on people who aren't David Cameron (or at least upper middle class, white Englishmen), I suspect...

    However, it is a little embarrassing for a country which helped draft the convention in the first place, (then didn't sign it till 40+ years later), and which travels the world lecturing everyone and their uncle about human rights, to withdraw from the European convention in favour of one designed for Englishmen, by an Eton?Oxford man who expects to have rights that most other [people don't have...

    Obviously there are great advantages in a written constitution; equally it must be kept up to date. I suspect in many ways, the American one, which was written before the political parties had a hold on political life and had polarized it so, may be in need of some modernisation.


    Good clps. Both Obama and Romney handled the situations well... I thought.

  17. This is true, Arbroath. We retained our own relationship with governance when we were sold down the river by our greedy politicians of the 18th century.

    Elizabeth is Queen of Scots and Queen of England.

    In Scotland the people, not the parliament nor the crown, is sovereign.

    We are already much more democratic that England, and it does have real consequences for the way things are done.

  18. tris

    Well i never
    ' they make it up to suit themselves as they go along'

    Just like Alex although he has fecked up big time

  19. Och yes Wolfie. It probably was. He walked into a private function and started shouting out the odds with a person of inferior mental capacity, and he was in the wrong.

    And no matter what you think of Spineless Cleggie, throwing blue paint on his was downright wrong.

    And yes he pleaded guilty. Maybe because he was told that they were going to stitch him up for cheeking an Old Etonian, and his better, and he'd get less hassle if he pled guilty.

    But I am concerned that freedom of speech is being eroded. There have been numerous examples recently of people expressing feelings which ranged from vaguely unpleasant to pretty horrible, who have been prosecuted.

    If we are going to start prosecuting people for having unpleasant manners, it's a sad day.

    The guy who tweeted about Tom Daley's father being disappointed that he only got a bronze, was out of line, but the police being called????

    The guy who wore a t-shirt saying "one less pig" after these two policemen were shot in Manchester may be a tasteless person, but it's not a crime surely to rejoice at someone's death. In any case, who knows what the police had done to him to deserve that.

    There are others, which have all happened in England. I'm disappointed to see that here. Surely it would have been enough to take him away.

    I take your point about he could have had a gun. Surely with someone as roundly hated as Cameron, specially in Scotland, everyone coming into the room should have been frisked. Not asked it they had a bloody ticket.

    It wasn't a Daniel o'Donnell concert!

    It was even more boring. :)

  20. Good Lord Juteman.

    I guess the polis must have been down on their arrest targets for the week.

    Or maybe there was some serious crime going on just around the corner with some dangerous criminals and they wanted to make it look as if they were so busy that missing it was excusable.

    I've a low opinion of the police in general terms (with some exceptions) Most of them appear to me to be thugs with power.

    Well I hope you learned your lesson...

  21. tria

    somtimes you talk utter bollocks

    In Scotland the people, not the parliament nor the crown, is sovereign.

    Joseph Goebbels
    They say we want power! Certainly, of course we want the power to implement our ideas, and as long as power is in their hands we have to attempt to win it.

    Power doesn’t belong to you, it belongs to the people.

    You are the people’s servants, and when you use power poorly, the people will take it away from you. That has to be made clear to the people when one criticizes the government, and that we have certainly done.

    The government’s parties say that we could join them, we could form a coalition. If we want to squeeze in, they can make room for us.

    That is out of the question! We National Socialists have no desire to sit next to you, we want to get rid of you. You must make room for young Germany.

    The governing parties say that it would be nice if we learned the art of governing. They are for example willing to give us the Welfare Ministry and teach us politics. But education requires two, one who teaches, and one who wants to learn. They say we want total power?! We say “Yes!” They ask if there is to be only one party? We say “Yes!”

    We do not think thirty parties are to Germany’s advantage, but rather its misfortune.The parties are the beneficiaries of our division; they use politics only to preserve their own interests through their control of the government. They have spread the pestilential stench of their coalitions across Germany, and that is why these parties must vanish.

    They have lost their right to exist over the past fourteen years. They were born to help the people, but they have become the people’s greatest enemy. One can say of them what the Englishman Cromwell said as he dissolved Parliament: “The people elected you to eliminate their misery, and you have become their greatest misery. We are therefore putting an end to your chatter. Is their a virtue you still possess or a vice that you do not possess? You came to help the people, but I tell you that you were never a government.”

    Ladies and gentlemen, I ask you, is not Germany today in the same situation?

  22. Yes Niko. As I said above, he was probably forewarned by the duty solicitor that mr Cameron wanted an example made of people who showed his office disrespect... just as he did with the English courts after the riots.

    He was plainly guilty of being there and of interrupting his Etonness in the middle of his speech.

    Best cough up and get a lesser punishment.

    As for the constitution. There are always [people who will find ways of making something crap out of something that was intended to be good!

    And I agree Obama has been pretty much a disappointment, but, to be fair, we wanted him to be some sort of a magic Wizard to put right the utter shambles of the Bush years.

    There was no way he was ever going to meet these expectations. Especially with an opposition which opposes for the sake of it.

  23. Hmmm Niko. You should carry a bottle with you, or get some incontinence pants.

  24. Nikqurzy

    Sometimes you do too.

  25. Dean:

    Of course it's not good manners.

    Odd then that all these wonderfully expensively educated, well brought up people in parliament do it all the time....

    ...well, when they are not fiddling something or other....

  26. tris

    yes indeed i sometimes talk utter bollocks but it is intentional.

    sovereignty yes well seeing as the majority of the Scots say none of the above to all the Political parties.

    Does that stop them forcing their unsupported ideas on the PEOPLE???

    can you show me how this sovereignty is captured by the snp.
    They are quite willing to accept a 51% win in a referendum on a low turnout.
    More people voted for other (Unionists )parties than for the snp but you ignore that fact.

    sovereignty belongs to those who take part in the democratic process. They then impose and coerce their version of sovereignty on the rest.

    the problem is what sovereignty do you get when the democratic process is broken.

  27. Tris...Yea, I've heard that "I'm not the one who deleted your post" before...LOL.

    Your discussion of the possibilities of enumerated rights in the UK is very interesting. As for the usefulness of a constitution that was adopted 223 years ago, the trick is "creative" interpretation by the Supreme Court from time to time.

    I wrote a response to Niko which I'm ready to post. It sort of turned into a report on the upcoming American election. I hope that's OK. But OK or not, I'm going to post it anyway. ;-)

  28. Would I lie to you Danny...?

    Anyway, seeing as you are going to post it anyway... there seems little point in my objecting to your response to Niko... except to say that you do realise that niko can't read don't you? And that Taz, Niko's faithful dog does all Niko's reading (and thinking) for him.

  29. @ Niko, Yes, you have it exactly right about the presidential election, now just 61 hours away....(not like I'm counting or anything.)

    In normal times I could live with a Romney victory, because in one sense he's just a garden variety big business Republican of the Wall Street board room/country club variety. And he's even governed a state so liberal left that it's sometimes jokingly referred to as the "Democratic People's Republic of Massachusetts."

    But as you observe, the problem is that a Romney victory would reward and empower the house of horrors that the new far right wing ("Tea Party") Republicans have become. And of course reward the Congressional Republicans who have blocked for four years every major piece of legislation that might have helped the economy and been interpreted as a victory for the Obama administration.

    They're a nasty group, and Romney sold his soul to them to get the Republican nomination.

    And you're also exactly right about the problem with a constitution and Bill of Rights. It depends on unelected life-term judges to interpret and enforce it. And today we have the activist right wing Scalia-Thomas branch of the Supreme Court to contend with. A group that the founding fathers of the republic would hardly recognize.

    And with a Romney victory, the next Supreme Court vacancy would be filled by a judge who will join this hard right faction of the court and flip the tenuous 5-4 progressive balance on the Court to a 5-4 conservative balance which could revisit some landmark cases which were settled years ago from a liberal perspective.

    In some ways the greatest power that a president has is the power over Supreme Court appointments, which can put his stamp on constitutional interpretation for many many years after he departs the presidency.

    So I'll be at my polling precinct when the polls open next Tuesday morning. I plan to vote early and often.....LOL. Here in Missouri, we have a Senate race this year which has gained national attention. The Democratic incumbent Claire McCaskill is in a race with far right wing nut case Todd Akin (of "legitimate rape" fame.) So I'll have the pleasure of casting a vote for Claire who may well win reelection. On the other hand, here in Missouri, my vote for Obama will be meaningless since the state will go strongly for Romney. The presidential race will in fact be decided in just eight swing states, in six of which, as of last night's polling numbers, Obama is holding razor thin leads.

    From now through late Monday night, the candidates and surrogates will be on airplanes flying among the eight swing states....most notably Ohio, where the election will more than likely be decided.

    And it might be noted that in this very close election, there is the clear mathematical possibility of a 269-269 electoral vote tie, short of the 270 absolute majority required for victory. Then the presidency would be decided in favor of Romney in what will surely be a Republican House of Representatives. Then , if the Democrats can cling to a narrow majority in the Senate, the upper house would choose Joe Biden as Vice President. There hasn't been a Congressional resolution of a presidential race since 1824. Or a clear split in the elected President and VP from different parties since Adams and Jefferson in 1797-1801.

    Thanks to Tris and Niko for allowing me to hijack this discussion thread for an election report! ;-)

  30. Niko.

    You can't force people to go and vote...well, that's not true, you can and some countries do, but we don't.

    So you have to work with the votes you have.

    It was your party...Blair, Mandelson and Brown along with Dewar... that came up with the voting system.

    The system is far more fair really than anything that happens in the UK where most seats never change hands, where there is a house of unelected people, who whatever anyone says, can hold up legislation and can introduce their own legislation.

    The unelected head of state remains the same in both parliaments, a situation I'd change if I could but I admit to being in the minority.

    More people voted from unionist parties, you say..well yes, but then we could argue in all sorts of ways about "more people voted from parties that want gay marriage, or more people voted for parties that want lower income tax, or more people voted for parties that want windmills, or...and the list goes on.

    Taking your argument more people voted for unionist parties... probably true...who would form the government...a coalition of unionist parties?

    Do you want to work in coalition with the Tories and the Liberals?

    As for the referendum, every person living in Scotland over the age of 16, will be able to vote. There are two choices. Whichever choice gets the most votes will win. It's up to each side to get their supporters out.

    If people can't be bothered to vote, it must be because they don't give a damn what the outcome is.

    Oh, I feel very strongly that Scotland should be independent but I simply must see Eastenders so, sorry I can't vote... or I firmly believe that Scotland should remain in the union but my girlfriend's coming round and...erm... we're going to be staying in...

    No one forces these people not to vote. Granted those who are under 16 will have our decision forced upon them, and those who are sectioned under the mental health act will have our decisions forced upon them...anyone else has the chance to vote.

  31. I'm glad I 'permitted' that, Danny...erm, I did, didn't I/

    It was very interesting.

    Get Taz to read it to you Niko. You'll like it.

  32. Do you want to work in coalition with the Tories and the Liberals?

    Are you forgetting Tris that Niko is already working in a coalition. A coalition of Tories.
    BLUE Tory,
    YELLOW Tory
    RED Tory

    I know Niko doesn't like to be reminded of this Tory coalition but what else could it be when ALL three parties seem to be agreeing on just about everything day after day. I very much doubt you could slip a cigarette paper between any of the policies from any of the parties.

  33. <>

    On a T shirt or shouting about it could be a criminal act in Scotland anyway; Breach of The Peace, even the silent T shirt one.

    Remember the newsagent selling glue to kids, even after being warned about the dangers. It wasn't a crime, at that time , to sell solvents to under 16sso, a member of the public stated that he and many of his friends were in a state of fear and anxiety about the youths behaviour and criminal activities to get money for the solvents that the newsagent was actually causing the Breach by his actions. I think the newsagent got 2 years, "pour encourager les autres"

    As I said I think the shouter was cut a deal if he pled guilty or else he would have been up before The Sheriff on an Breach, not the local magistrate.

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