Monday 5 November 2012


I have COPied this from THE blog of Weegie warbler, with permission (WELL, in the comments on her blog she says that she is happy for this to be copied anywhere).

it is WELL worth a read, even though it is quite long.

fOR a good laugh, can i recommend you scot goes pop's post today. iT'S on gordon brown's 20 questions AND it's ABSOLUTELY hilarious. JAMES AT HIS SCATHING BEST

Dissecting the McCrone Report, the official secret of Westminster

The McCrone report is a document often referred to by Nationalists or those generally in favour of the restoration of Scotland’s sovereign powers as something of a mystic Holy Grail with regards to proving Westminster's lies and deceit.

For those who have read it, it’s shocking. The reaction to its draft by Westminster is even more so. The report was buried in the Whitehall’s vaults for 30 years under the auspices of the “Official Secrets Act”.

As we all know, the Official Secrets Act is there to protect The State form prejudicial interferences which may affect National Security. Therefore, we need to understand exactly what that is and how anything gets that designation. Was it appropriate in this instance?

Fundamentally a document can be classed as an official secret, if it contains information which is construed to be prejudicial to the State, basically the implication is the information could be used by enemies of the State, most often such classification would be seen in times of war and applied to military aspects of the State. A democracy really should not have official secrets of a civilian nature, especially during periods of peace.

Therefore, in the UK almost any official article prejudicial to the perceived security or interests of the State can be designated an officially secret document, and an individual could apparently have been prosecuted based upon character alone if it were even suspected they might have been thinking about discussing or disseminating it. Talk about character assassination.

Every appearance is that the UK government is substantially abusing its authority by invoking this heavyweight power against a peacetime document, which simply asks questions surrounding the implications of a mineral deposit discovered within one of its constituent nations.

It is clear this report was classified as an “official secret”, for to release it would have ended London rule. The pretext was it endangered the state as controlled by the UK parliament, and it had to be crushed prior to any distribution. The reason being, if it became public knowledge then attempts at suppression could easily be argued to violate UN charters on the rights of indigenous populations.

At a minimum, it could/should have lead to an entirely different Scotland today. 
In reading the report it is obvious the Westminster government of the day put London before Scotland and chose, in time of peace, to enact legislation designed to protect the state against antagonistic foreign interests.

The only available interpretation here was that the London government viewed Scots knowledge of the report as an inimical foreign interest. 

Reading the report it becomes clear why there was a cover up and why confusion, confabulation, lies and misdirection remain the apparent order of the day for many in the London establishment even as we head for another Scottish independence referendum – having won the first in 1979.

The report commissioned by Ted Heath in 1974, was written specifically to assess the implications for Westminster with regards to both the SNP and the EEC following the discovery of North Sea Oil. Heath lost the October general election to Harold Wilson. Both Labour and the Conservatives could have come clean and revealed this report. Neither did.

The paper began by acknowledging that “the whole framework within which the economic implications of nationalism were argued has indeed been altered”. Fundamentally the opening paragraph says it is a whole new ball game and Scotland’s just been gifted an unassailable 5-0 lead.

The document continues by highlighting the underlying causes of discontent in Scotland and acknowledges “these problems have not been overcome, nor do they look as if they will be in the foreseeable future”. McCrone is basically stating that under the political status quo, Scotland can only anticipate the status quo of poor health, deprivation and relative economic stagnation.

We can assume any government would not wish this for its electorate, no matter how small a portion. Westminster evidenced this is not the case in London. The only clearly available interpretation is that Scot’s don’t matter.

McCrone therefore concluded the opening overview with the statement “The importance of North Sea oil is that it raises just this [economic] issue in a more acute form than at any other time since the Act of Union was passed”.

In plain English – the discovery of the oil is a game changer and not one Westminster can defend against, it threatens the very existence of the British State more than anything else has in almost three centuries.

Fundamentally that statement put it into the realms of the Official Secrets Act. The report, if released, had every expectation of undermining the establishment within the British State.

The inappropriateness of burying this document was irrelevant in the eyes of the ruling government of the day; to make this an “official secret” was a fundamental requirement for Westminster. It did not matter that they were lying to an already deprived populous, who were no external threat. It had to be buried, before a strong campaign of disinformation could proceed. This led to the 1979 referendum which the Unionists still lost.

As the report progresses McCrone acknowledges that Scotland’s main impediment to national economic success is Westminster and its London-centric policies. He states it is “partly a question of the scale of the Scottish economy, but more of the extent to which it has been integrated with the rest of the UK [England] over the last 270 years”.

In his next paragraph he ties both unemployment in Scotland and migration from Scotland to the effect of the Union and its policies before stressing three ways an independent Scots government could prosper.

He recommends protection of Scotland’s existing and new industries through taxes and tariffs, but indicates that there may be repercussions from the EEC; though he describes that what may come from the EEC is likely to be insignificant in comparison to the reprisals from England.

Basically he’s saying an independent Scotland should not expect Westminster to play nice. 
He then suggests a Scotland implements a self directed fiscal policy, one which benefits Scots, not London.

McCrone makes the case that this independent Scotland could afford policies that England could not match. He’s basically warning Westminster at this point that they should expect to have an economic powerhouse as a neighbour, small in relative size but wielding far more power in this present world.

He then proceeds to discuss the Kilbrandon Commission and its ramifications, where Scotland was shown to need English subsidy. However, Kilbrandon had ignored oil revenues, and consequently showed the need for a reduction in an independent Scotland’s budget, a subsidy from England or significant borrowing.

McCrone disagreed with Kilbrandon, noting even then without oil, it would be feasible for an independent Scotland to balance the books. Achieving this end primarily by no longer contributing to the extremely high UK defense budget and by implementing a modest devaluation of the Scots pound. Other potential implications were viewed by McCrone, but none were seen as “deal breakers” on the path to independence. He noted that with the advent of oil, the Kilbrandon Report was a dead duck; however, Westminster used it most effectively.

In the report, McCrone went so far as to suggest without considering the discovery of oil, that the above measures would be enough to stimulate the economy, provide jobs and growth and put the nation on a firm footing.

With the discovery of oil he noted, it might be difficult to contain the rise in value of the Scots pound. 
It’s useful to understand that Scotland under UK fiscal policy has seen more than a 100% currency devaluation since the McCrone report. Under Westminster’s stewardship our current high point in Scotland is that we’re now stumbling into “Austerity”. No one can predict what might have happened had we the control of our own fiscal levers for the last thirty five years, but we can safely say it would have taken several administrations exhibiting unforeseen levels of gross incompetency to take us anywhere close to the area Westminster has us today. Effectively in the time since this report was written nothing has changed.  

McCrone then concludes his opening gambit by saying that for Scotland to succeed, Scotland requires economic sovereignty.

Economic sovereignty is what our upcoming referendum is truly about. 

McCrone then proceeded to discuss the oil issue in greater depth – making it clear he was simply referencing Scotland’s “traditional” industries to this point as he clearly states “the analysis in the last section is based upon the situation as it appeared before the discovery of North Sea Oil”.

McCrone begins the section on oil’s implications by stating the department of trade and industry is hiding the revenue data from the public, the values he assigned have been removed or redacted from the original report by the UK government, it was apparently done with a black marker.

The document concludes that paragraph by saying the “significance of this [omission of true value] has probably not been appreciated by the public”. Or in other words “I believe the public has no idea of how much you are lying to them by omission”.

McCrone then attacks Westminster for rubbishing SNP claims about values and mismanagement of resources without making available documentary evidence, but acknowledges the government’s case was being bought by the Scots voting public who were being led to believe the SNP figures were “pretty wild”.

He then alluded to how Norwegian policy supported the SNP claims of Westminster incompetence. He went so far as to use the phrase “This has shown the total inadequacy of government arrangements to secure revenue…” before concluding the section with the clear and unambiguous statement “all that is wrong with the SNP estimate now is that it is far too low”.

So, the SNP grossly underestimated the oil revenues, Westminster used the media with all its might, convinced the Scots that the SNP estimate was “pretty wild”on the high side and that it would “run out soon” while all along, London was fully aware that the SNP was grossly underestimating as only Whitehall had the real data. 

That’s on top of the fact Scotland already had a viable economy even without the oil. 
The report then advanced into the realm of oil revenues on Scotland’s balance sheet, concluding that she could fundamentally be in better position than Norway presently discovers herself, with the statement “What is quite clear is that the balance of payments from North Sea Oil would easily …. transform Scotland into a country with a substantial and chronic surplus”. 

This is worth repeating. Scotland would have no deficit, Scotland would have no debt. 

McCrone went on to state that these numbers and statements were based on estimates that were already very conservative and consequently, the true picture for Scotland was much brighter than that painted above.

Interestingly the document then goes on to discuss the ability of England to claim a proportional level of North Sea Oil based upon a UK asset claim and demand disbursion based upon population ratio, effectively giving England over 90% of North Sea Oil reserves. The report threw this assertion out with both the baby and the bathwater. It stated “Dispute on these matters might well occasion much bitterness between the two countries, but it is hard to see any conclusion other than to allow Scotland to have that part of the continental Shelf which would have been hers if she had been independent all along.”

McCrone concludes this section of his report with the following summary, a summary as accurate today as it was over thirty five years ago.

“lt must be concluded therefore that large revenues and balance of payments gains would indeed accrue to a Scottish Government in the event of independence provided that steps are taken either by carried interest or taxation to secure the government ‘take’.

Undoubtedly this would banish any anxieties the government might have had about its budgetary position or its balance of payments. The country would tend to be in chronic surplus to quite an embarrassing degree and its currency would become the hardest in Europe with the exception of perhaps the Norwegian kroner”. 

McCrone hypothesized that a Scots pound would be worth 20% more than Bank of England issue within two years, with little to no downside in the Scots economy. 
“Just as deposed monarchs and African leaders have in the past used the Swiss franc as a haven of security, so now would the Scottish pound be seen as a good hedge against inflation and devaluation and the Scottish banks could expect to find themselves inundated with a speculative inflow of foreign funds”.

Effectively this can be taken to read that there would have been no banking collapse or credit crises in an independent Scotland, whereas what happened under Westminster’s guiding gauntlet is now a matter for the historians.

The McCrone report concludes with a reasonably detailed examination of steps the Scottish Government could take to ensure Scotland’s prosperity over the longer term; there were surprisingly few negatives or cautionary aspects. 

If this 1707 Union were a private contract, Scotland would carry none of the UK debt and in the upcoming negotiation for independence, Westminster would be open to severe penalties for fraud and deception.

PS: Pa Broon's got a brilliant piece over here (with a couple of jokes thrown in, incase you get bored).


  1. I know I'm O/T here Tris but just thought you'd like to know that there is a Big Debate on BBC 1 tonight at 22:35 coming from the Motherwell Civic Centre. It might make for some interesting viewing.

    I'll get back to your article later. :D

  2. tris

    harping on about the old McCrone report wont butter no parsnips.
    The problem is you whinge over a supposedly lying deceitful westminster Government.
    When that can be is being said to describe the present snp cabal at holyrood.

    Or is it Unionist lies are bad Nationalist lies are all hunky dory.

  3. The McCrone report represents a £300 billion lie spanning 30 years.

    It's as relevent now as it was then, look at what Westminster and the unionist parties are doing with Trident renewal, its exactly the same thing.

    They are telling lies in order to justify replacing it at the expense of the people who voted for them.

    Oh hold on, we didn't vote for them did we?

  4. Thanks Arbroath...

  5. Niko... That's good. I can't abide parsnips. Vile things, should be banned.

    Now a good carrot on the other hand is an altogether more interesting prospect. Nicer colour; nicer taste; nicer smell... and they look great on a plate.

    Parsnips are insipid and taste of cat wee. (Not that I've ever tasted cat wee.. but Taz told me!)

    As fopr lies from Mats and lies from unionists, well, no none is alright.

    And everyone tells lies sometimes, even the Pope (well probably quite often for him if his butler knows anything) and the Queen (who has no need to lie about anything as she is above the law).

    You know when most politicians are lying... their lips are moving!

    But the McCrone report being hidden for 30 years puts all other lies into the shade, and then some.

    People need to be allowed to chose their futures based on reasonable and fair information.

    In peacetime, and out of greed, the English cabinet withheld this information from Scots becasue the truth would ahve made them leave the union, and England would ahve been sunk.

    Mrs Thatcher needed our oil money to pay all the dole money she created the need for, and later the sickness benefit money which she found it more "convenient" to pay out.

    McCrone and anyone who has seen the report were put under the OSA which, I believe, if you break you can be charged with Treason...

    It was evil.

    Now off you go and ask Taz what he thinks about parsnips...

  6. ....buttered or otherwise

  7. £300 billion...

    Just imagine, Pa, what we could do for Scotland with £300 billion.

  8. Roast them tris makes them palatable might work for unionists as well.

    I always thought if one didn't look back at history then one will keep making the same mistakes again and again.

  9. I really like parsnips, they make a lovely soup. On more important matters, McCrone is important because it shows that Westminster will happily lie to your face and rob you blind. They did so before and gthey are doing so now. A positive campaign is all well and good but we have the proof they lied and used our money for building the M25 and the Channel Tunnel (there is a follow-up letter from McCrone to civil servants warning them of Scotland's anger it is found out). For years we've been told we are subsidy junkies. Too many still believe that. So McCrone report needs to be delivered to every household along with quotes the Unionists made about Scotland at the time.

  10. yeah well its just like if i found a gold bar and me mum took it off me. then fairly mind shred it wid the rest of me family and me.

    Now yer nasty nat would take said gold bar and sneakily hide it for themselves and watch the others starve.
    and then when the others were dead take out the gold bar and spend it on selfish things.

    And that is the difference between a real nice civic minded person and a self centered nasty nat.

  11. or if not a gold bar a luvvly big parsnip

    as burny once sung

    Fareweel to a' our Scottish fame,
    Fareweel our ancient glory;
    Fareweel ev'n to the Scottish name,
    Sae fam'd in martial story.
    Now Sark rins over Solway sands,
    An' Tweed rins to the ocean,
    To mark where England's province stands-
    Such a parcel of veggies in a nation!

    What force or guile could not subdue,
    Thro' many warlike ages,
    Is wrought now by a coward few,
    For hireling traitor's parsnips.
    The English steel we could disdain,
    Secure in valour's station;
    But English buttered parsnips has been our bane-
    Such a parcel of veggies in a nation!

    O would, ere I had seen the day
    That Treason thus could sell us,
    My auld grey head had lien in clay,
    Wi' Bruce and loyal Wallace!
    But pith and power, till my last hour,
    I'll mak this declaration;
    We're bought and sold for English buttered parsnips -
    Such a parcel of veggies in a nation![1]

  12. Using the gold bar analogy, Scotland finds a gold bar and doesn't mind sharing it with the rest of the family but the bullying dad steals it, spends it all on themselves whilst the wife and kids starve and are told it's their own fault they are too wee, too stupid and too poor.
    See we can all play this game.

  13. anon
    I award you a bunch but not a plate of parsnips.

    Is not hardworking dad who has been keeping the family all those years allowed some of the gold.

  14. As usual Niko gets everything erse about face, upside down and back to front.

    Who the hell is this nice civic minded person?
    It sure as hell isn't Thatcher.
    Nor is it Blair.
    Nor is it Brown.
    It certainly isn't Cameron.
    So who exactly is this civic minded person then?

  15. Roasted Niko, CH?

    Oh well, it's an idea. There's many a bonfire about the place tonight, and plenty embers for roasting.

    Yes, I think the idea is that you look at what happened before, and the chaos that resulted from it (as it always did) and work out whether what you are doing now is likely to end in the same sort of chaos, or a different sort...

  16. Arbroath 1320

    The united kingdom reigned over by our glorious queen (of all Scots)
    Is full of kindly civic minded persons.

    From every and all parts of the British isles.Dont you agree or are you suggesting only in the snp held areas of Scotland does this phenomenon exist

  17. Brilliant point Anon.

    I'm all for positivity. There are a lot of good things out there for our country once we are relieved of the 'punching above our weight in everything' responsibility.

    In the meantime all the unionists can say is that we will get more of what David Cameron has been dishing out, and it won't change dramatically if Labour get in.

    We will follow the president into war whenever and wherever and the poor can go and die, because they won't get a halfpenny from either. There will be no supposed something for nothing (although frankly I thought that working all your days and paying Tax and NI wasn't exactly "nothing".

    Frankly, they lied to us. A massive huge supersonic lie. To the tune of £300 billion says Pa Broon (above)

    They lied about their expenses too.

    They lied about paedophiles.

    They lied about WMDs in Iraq.

    They've lied over and over again about so many things, but McCrone was massive. A bigger lie than any of the others.

    They couldn't afford to lose us and so instead they told us WE couldn't afford to lose THEM.


  18. So, Niko... what actually happened is that we shared the gold bar with them, because they lied and told us it was just iron covered with golden paper.

    Then they took the real gold, and they bought at seat at the G8, and a seat at the UN and loads of nasty weapons and they sent our men to die with inferior equipment in wars that were either illegal or nothing to do with us... and we let them, because we trusted them when they said that we didn't actually have any gold at all. They didn't give a penny to the poor or the sick...

    Now. If they hadn't told us lies, we would have beefed up our economy; had jobs for all our working classes; never had Thatcher and her evilness; and would have had a booming economy...better, they said, than Norway's... and so for those that couldn't work or for the old...there would never have been ATOS or the suggestion that people should work for their pension...

  19. Did you write that all yourself Niko?

  20. Or did Taz help you with the bigger words?

  21. Yep Anon... off down the pub with our money, showing off to all his posh friends from America and China and Japan... with never a thought for those at home in the cold and damp...

  22. Good article CH... and the guy is right. At some stage the unions will have to take a view.

    There would certainly be more disposable money in Scotland, so maybe the three pronged attack on these people's income...

    ... Pay Freeze
    ... Inflation
    ... Increased pension contributions

    would be able to be addressed.

    Additionally, he's right. You can't have men just a couple of years shy of 70 working as prison officers.

    Geez that's a young man's game. 60 is an absolute maximum, I'd have thought.

    Policemen on the beat retire long before that.

  23. tris

    Nov 5th Taz is not a happy mutt asleep on carpet by fire at the mo
    but a wee Scaredy of all the noise.

    Oops! he just shot off into kitchen

    lying is such a horrid word my preference is 'terminological inexactitude' or "economical with the actualité".

    Lying bastard is so brutish and nasty

  24. Another good article tris apologies if I have already linked. The Beginning of the End for Scottish Labour?

    ps. popped a pic in the last thread which could be useful over the EU.

  25. Don't forget either Tris the regular lies that came from Westminster about the oil running out.

    We first heard it in 1975, then around 1983, then 1995 etc etc etc. Now I don't know about you Tris I seem to have read somewhere fairly recently that there is STILL oil flowing from the North Sea. Not only that but there is now technology available to be used that will extract even MORE oil from the depleted wells. I believe when I read this it mentioned that only about 10% of the oil had already been extracted.

    As far as civic minded people are concerned Niko that is why I asked you the question. WHO are these civic minded people?

  26. Awww poor wee Tz... OK poor BIG Taz.

    You should be giving him a cuddle Niko. Let him know that Cameron hasn't declared war on Holyrood... otherwise I wouldn't give for Camergoon's survival... nasty texts AND Taz's teeth sinking in to his well padded Eton arse... GRRRRRRRR.

    Sometimes it's OK to be brutally honest and forget the PC world... (ha ha ha PC World... did you like that?), so lying bastard is OK by me...

  27. Greaqt article CH: I always like Mad Jock McMad's comments and this one is no exception:

    One month on and now Lamont is saying Trident is a good thing for Scotland to have, found herself and Curran booed at a STUC march, been left looking stupid over the EU and never seen from one FMQ to the next when she comes out with her London prepared script for another 'doin' as Iain Davidson MP would put it. .

    Labour lost the plot in 2007, Brown's huffy cancelling of the highly advanced carbon capture plant at Peterhead was the start,cutting the Scottish budget by 3% per annum for no other reason than he could,Darling refusing to go up against Yes Scotland's Blair Jenkins in a BBC debate, throw in Dennis McShane, Glasgow Labour Council's continuing malfeasance (the latest is the 'loss' of 270 laptops from a 'secure store') and the open sore that is their public service contracts with known Glasgow Gang front companies (worth over £2 million per year according to Strathclyde Police) and you have what remains of Labour's Scottish region with more in common with 'Tammany Hall' than a political party.

    Now the terminal decline of Westminster and the Union grows apace with the revelations surrounding Saville, Members of Parliament and sexual abuse, the continuing abuse of expenses and its 'Romneyisation' as it heads for a political disaster not seen since before Cromwell's time.

    The polarisation you feared last month is now complete: vote 'Yes' for a social democratic and progressive Scotland - vote 'No' for for a reactionary, wreck social cohesion, status quo.

  28. Oh I'll pop over and look CH, thanks

  29. Och aye Arbroath. The oil's aye been running out.

    I tell you, if it were the Tories wouldn't be putting up ANY fight at all to seeing back of is. All we do for them is produce 40 seats for the opposition in THEIR parliament.

  30. Another 'Big Debate' on BBC1.

    Willie Rennie, Anas Sarwar, Angela Constance, Patrick Harvie and Tom Devine.

    Its a 2 2 1 formation.

    How horrid will this be?

  31. Just been watching a bit of it. This is grossly out of order. Totally Biased in favour of the Unionists.
    The Yes Campaign are going to need a UN representative to oversee this part of the Edinburgh agreement. "The governments are agreed that the referendum should meet the highest standards of fairness, transparency and propriety, informed by consultation and independent expert advice."
    Lets call for the Independent expert arbitrator NOW.

    tris. You mentioned ATOS. So did a young man on that program. He asked about welfare cuts and benefits. He did not get a reply from anyone.
    ATOS is a very big dangerous elephant in the room for the SNP and the BBC and indeed any party.
    I don't want to discuss it here in this thread but it MUST be addressed or the Yes Camp are going to lose a lot of votes.
    I'd like you to see what i mean before i post it anywhere.


  33. It's very horrible Pa... The trouble is that the BBC have a vested interest in keeping the union. They are essentially an establishment organisation, supposedly neutral, but absolutely in thrall to the government at Westminster which says how much they can tax us and waste our money. This is undoubtedly why the Tories, who would privatise their grandmothers, and Labour (who might stop JUST short of that, but not if the price was right) have never sold them off for the vast amounts they are worth.

    Additionally, BBC Scotland knows it is soup under independence. The very best (are there any) might get a job in Manchester or Carlisle) The rest will be on the dole.

  34. deewal:

    I agree completely.

    I've always said that from day one we should have outside observers.

    You cannot have the whole thing overseen by one of the original partners to the treaty.

    The UN or the EU would have been called in if this had been in Africa or the Middle East, so why not here?

    Is it that the English are considered to be above duplicity?

    Well... er yeah... coughs and splutters into silence...

  35. As for the Atos scandal of the Games. I agree completely. Why on Earth that was allowed is beyond my comprehension.

    I was a strong supporter of the Glasgow games. When Atos's involvement was pointed out to me I withdrew that support.

    This is an immoral organisation making millions, probably billions out of the UK government by imposing misery and sometimes even death on the weakest people in our society.

    Of course from the economic point of view this saves Iain Duncan Smith millions on benefits. I don't suppose that killing off the sick was the original idea and I'm not suggesting it, in case Mr Duncan Smith wants to get litigious, but there is no denying that with hundreds of sick people dying every year as a result of Atos's involvement, must save him a pot of dosh.

    The problem as you rightly point out is that the Edinburgh government has allowed itself to be involved with a distance of course, through the Games organisers. I'm not sure whether the Sport Minister could have stopped it. It would be interesting to find out. Certainly Nicola could have and should have, avoided being photographed with them.

    Of course Labour, who originally employed these people; the Tories who continue to employ them, and the Liberals by extension, having failed to stop them, despite, I have to say, grass root revulsion (see George Potter's blog) aren't really in a position to criticise. But that doesn't make it any better.

    It was, as far as I can see, an own goal.

    I'm not sure what value it brings to the games (except loads of cash) given that the organisation is roundly hated in Scotland, to have them associated with the Games.

    I'd be interested to know to what extent the government could have controled the sponsors, if anyone knows.

  36. Tris are you sure that the BBC will even last until the referendum?

    Looking at all the Jimmy Saville type of goings on that seem to be surfacing every day I'm beginning to wonder how much longer they can actually survive and retain the current BBC set up and structure.

    If things keep going as they have been I think I'd be very surprised to see the BBC still around in its current form by the time of the referendum.

  37. I'd say that the government needs the BBC so will be reluctant to do anything serious about it, Arbroath.

    Things, even as horrific as the Savile (et al) scandal at the BBC have a short shelf life in the UK.

    Added to which I suspect that there are too many important people with ties to the government, the Lords, the palace etc, with vested interests that the BBC not do any more investigation.

    Imagine the danger of some BBC journalists let free (and jobless) to investigate and write on the subject of who knew what about what...

    No, I think the BBC will remain safe. It potentially knows too much, and treated the right way can be cowed into submission.

    And let's be honest it is doing the lion's share of the No campaign's job.

    BTW, did I hear that Alistair Darling has said there is to be no more Mr Nice Guy... Oh god, we're all soooo scared dearest Darling.

  38. Yeah I see your point Tris.However, the fact that there seems to be a never ending drip drip drip of this I just wonder how long it will be before we have a "popular" uprising against the BBC?

    Don't forget Westminster itself is by no means clean on this issue either. What with one known but unnamed former Tory minister in the frame. Just like the BBC where there is one others are sure to have followed.

    I think both Westminster and the BBC are in for a rough time over this. Westminster may be able to shut down the story on the BBC but the rest of the media will not take so kindly to being told to shut it down.

    O/T but Westminster related. I've just come across this video about how claimants are "tricked" by the job centre. SICK! This is a result of the Tories at their "best" in power.

  39. The BBC are reluctant to say anything about ATOS as ATOS is the BBC'S IT partner.
    You wont hear anything on the BBC about this.................... or this......

  40. To be honest, I don't see the population rising against the BBC, Arbroath. By and large we don't bother with that sort of thing in the UK. I'm not sure why. We moan a lot about paying £140 for something we hardly use, but that's as far as it goes usually.

    I think that the BBC will continue to oblige the government by keeping the news on the Tory (and for all we know other parties') connection with Savile, in return that only mild criticism of the corporation is allowed.

    It's almost a symbiotic relationship. They need each other. They are both flawed and hate each other but the one can't get by without the other...

    You're right though. The rest of the press is unlikely to be so kind. Rumour has it that it stretches over a very very wide area and even those at the very very top are no immune.

    I reckon that MI 5/6 or whatever will have the news suppressed.

  41. Thanks for the links deewal.

    The Games organisers and the government are, of course separate, but I am totally in agreement that the government should have spoken out about ATOS's involvement in the Games.

    I'd be surprised to hear much in the way of criticism from the london parties though. They are up to their ears in Atos!

  42. Yes, I saw that video before, Arbroath and I can believe that it is true.

    I briefly worked for Jobcentre, when I was between other decent jobs. I have never worked in such a target driven environment, so disorganised and lowly motivated.

    Nothing matters except getting a target... in this case 3 people a week to be taken off dole, because they can't get them into work.

    There is no work so it's the only way to save money.

    That people starve, or are homeless matter not a whit to them (the management). It can make the staff ill. (Long term absenteeism was rife when I worked there).

    Clearly (and I know this from being on projects with JC+), it is the people who are the weakest that they hurt. They never touch the people who are hardmen... No chance. They are frightened of them.

    The government swears that they don't give JC+ targets; they also swear that they don't give Atos targets.

    It's strange that all these people have targets nonetheless.

    Either all of these staff are lying, or the government is lying...

    I wonder.

  43. tris

    The government doesnt need to give targets you just say we hacked dis many off benefits. And they say well done keep it up and bobs your uncle.

    whats your take on Alex salmond rewriting Ministerial Code????

    sleazy sleeze from alex

    they will get him for the unwarranted 12 grand spend in the end. Be a while but slowly slowy catchee slippery first minister

    THE row over an independent Scotland’s place in Europe is damaging the prospect of a Yes vote in the 2014 referendum, a former leader and Deputy leader of the SNP warned today.

    yeah well perhaps Gordon Wilson and Jim Sillars should shut up..ha ha ha

    The bbc biased against the destroyers of the they should be the snp are the ENEMY.
    Nobody expected the bbc to give a fair go to the Nazi party during the war.So why should they treat the snp any differently.

  44. there he goes over the top again as usual 'enemy Nazi'

  45. I know Taz... He been on the Meths again?

    I sympathise with you having tio put up with him, but he'd be a danger on his own.

    Niko: Shut up and go back and lie on your bed. Any more rubbish from you tonight and there will be no supper.

    There Taz...that's told him. Maybe you'll get a bit of peace now.

    Saor Alba gu brath