Wednesday, 19 December 2012


Una, an ex-Labour party person who got fed up with New Labour... and who wants an independent Scotland so that she can have a Labour, a real Labour government, in a democracy, and who doesn't see why we should have a Tory government, when we didn't vote Tory. 


  1. tris

    the vast majority of Scots didnt vote for a snp cabal but that unfortunately is what they are having to endure.

    Voting for Independence to escape the Tory is a pointless exercise it isnt an apellation its a philosophy.

    which many snp msps and party members totally agree with.

  2. The woman clearly doesn't understand democracy if she doesn't understand why the UK government is a Tory Lib Dem coagulation.
    As for an independent Scotland having a true Labour government, be careful what you wish for. Socialism has failed those who vote for it time and time again by taking from those who do to give to those who can't or won't when they are not spending the largesse of society on themselves.

  3. Tory/Labour/Lib Dem are just the same.
    It was Labour that let the banks rip and then gave them £400Bn when they failed. Doesn't sound very socialist. Or capitalist either actually.
    Not sure what we've got in charge in London. I just know we've got too few votes in Scotland to determine who rules us in London so independence is the only way that Scots can get the type of government that they want.

  4. Niko.

    A bit of sophistry there. the SNP got more votes than the other parties, not more than the others 'put together'.

    Although you can't get a fag paper between the tories, libdems and labour in terms of policy (you may-as-well be voting for one party in that regard,) that isn't how democracy works either.

    I think the idea is labour in Scotland would be more socialist (or social democratic) that labour in the UK. Personally I've never and will never vote labour; a socialist I am not, although I can see the attraction; human nature doesn't quite work that way.

  5. Why do you say cabal Niko?

    If I remember rightly the SNP did better than other parties. Most votes, most FPTP seats, most regional seats.

    The Tories, on the other hand didn't get most votes, didn't get most seats. Now I accept that the Liberals did get 11 seats (for the last time, I'd guess) but if people had known that they were going to throw their lot in with the Tories, they wouldn't have got a quarter of these seats.

    It's strange that UK politics is very often a case of voting AGAINST things rather than for them...but that's what you get with FPTP. Tactical voting abounds.

    However, I agree with you, voting to keep the Tories out is a very negative way of doing things. There are great positive reasons for voting for a nationalist party...Socialist Labour, SNP, Green... We've listed them before, and I'm sure you know them off by heart.

    But for many people, just simply not having the cruel uncaring, hateful, governance of people who look down on us, don't understand us and don't want to, but do need our oil, water, gas, electricity, etc, is reason enough.

    Your choice is live like Norway, or like the North of England... Easy.

  6. Well, she may actually understand it, as I do QM, but still wonder how, or why, it should be like that.

    I take your point about socialism wreaking havoc... but then, in fairness, so does capitalism, as the current situation since 2008 shows... And yes it was Gordon Brown's fault here and some people though him a socialist, but it happened in capitalist America, under neo-con Dick Cheney and his puppet.

    You know, when you have to take benefits away from blind paraplegics and deem them fit for work, while posh lads on St Andrews beach pour £600 worth of champagne over their heads just to show off that they can, then you know you are living in the wrong place. Well, you do if you are me.

    They tell us we should be proud to be British. Well, it beats the hell out of me why I should.

    We have over 3000 people dying in the UK every year because they are cold, and yet we have £100,000,000,000 to spend on new nuclear weapons which we won't even own. There's something wrong with that. It certainly doesn't make me proud.

    Britain is such a horrible society, mean and self serving. At the moment I'm contrasting the people in the better shops in town, spending £1000 on their kids' presents, and boasting about it, with the lads sitting outside these shops selling the Big Issue, or just begging.

    Ever seen a beggar in Norway?

    Independent Scotland won't be perfect. It will take a long time to build a society like Scandinavia, if we ever can, but it has to be better than the sickening filth we have now.

    Giving to those who genuinely can't, for whatever reason, isn't, in my book, a terrible thing.

  7. Yes Monty, I wondered what political philosophy says that you allow banks to do anything the want, cheat, lie, set false rates, cheat their customers, allow their traders to come up with ideas that no one understand, as long as it makes money (the very nastiest part of capitalism), but also thinks that it is fair that, having taken all these risks and lost, they are handed more money than the country could possible have, and not punished, indeed allowed 4 years after the muck hit the fan, to be doing most of the stuff.

    And yes, they have been fined for Libor but as we all know, the sums are tiny for them, and of course, it's us that is paying anyway.

    And yes. No one in London gives a damn about the 59 jocks with their strange accents and kilts made out of haggis skins. Jolly good lark though, to watch them struggling to know which fork and knife to use...

  8. Some human natures do seem to be able to cope with some sort of socialism, I think, Pa. It would be interesting to discuss how British socialism ended up being the train wreck that it was or is ...(is there still socialism in the UK?). Maybe something to do with the constant 'us and them attitude', the class phenomenon.

    They tell us that unless we allow the rich to make obscene amounts of money, they (the innovators) will go elsewhere, but the Swedes and Norwegians haven't, the Danes and Finns haven't. Even Icelanders, probably the best educated people in the world, with, 4 years ago, the shell of a country, didn't.

    They tell us that unless we pay workers next to nothing, then companies will go abroad ... but again, they don't in Germany or Holland or Belgium... in fact HP Sauce recently moved their production from England to Holland.

    So, I think it is how you define socialism that matters...

    Not the constant strikes over the softness of toilet paper in the workers toilets... that 1970s British socialism produced.

    Just treating people who aren't fit enough, or clever enough to elbow their way to the top, as if they were humans, and not some sort of despicable dirty sub species might be a good start.

    I wish there was a party in the UK that was worth voting for, but as far as I can see most of the MPs have their eyes set on cabinet rank and on a seat in the house of the living dead...

    Incidentally, did you know it was illegal to die in the House of lards? Probably because if it weren't they'd regularly do it and that would spoil luncheon.