And sotland needs a Labour party like a hole in the head. Scotland's fine with the SNP. Unless, you're a careerist politician, then you can bugger off to Westminster, sell your country short and get a knighthood or a lairdship, forgetting the downtrodden that got you where you are.
Too damned right there Jimnarlene, the only constituent they bother about is themselves. Put up income tax and forget conveniently that it puts it up for everyone. Then if you were stupid enough and thankfully not many fools in the SNP, they point the finger and tell you you are robbing the poor. I want a revision of Council Tax, more bands, less tax taken off single people and small houses, I used to be one band down from Elizabeth Windsor and that is just ridiculous. Was this not a Tory tax after the Poll Tax debacle, and Labour never revised it, but then what can you expect from the Red Tories.
Yes we can see why the snp drones would laugh at the idea of a anti austerity budget............with the risible idea of wealthy very wealthy many snp office holder being of that strata paying a little bit more in Tax, In fairness to lessen the burden on the lower income earners within Scottish society.
Oh yes snp laugh out loud laugh out long at any attempt at an anti austerity agenda...
Not got much of an understanding of how the Scottish Income Tax was set up Niko. No way that you can put Tax up for high earners without harming those at the bottom or middle. Away back to School and take Jackie,I obviously had an English Education, Baillie with you.
Niko: My understanding is that the power over income tax means that whatever we do to the higher rates of tax, we must do to the lower rate of tax.
As I understand it we cannot shift the limits of these taxes, and we can't change the threshold.So if we wanted to hit the super rich (not that there are many in Scotland) by putting the tax back up to 50p...something that Harrier Harman ruled out for the UK), we would have to increase all rates by the same amount.
We would not be able to take the threshold up to £15,000.
Even if we could, in a unitary state, change income tax levels in Scotland, it would result in the rich moving their main address to England or Wales, or registering their business there.
Income tax on its own is a very blunt instrument,a nd not being able to vary the bands, or introduce new ones, makes it virtually impossible to use.
Unless you can balance it by altering other large tax bases, like VAT, duty on cigarettes, booze, perfume, etc... it is not a power worth having. Labour will know this. They had the power to change income tax for 8 years, and they never used it. They could have taken it down a penny, for example, instead of handing money back as they did.
Jackie went to a private school, Helena, and you are right, it was in England.
Labour in Scotland fought, tooth and nail, for two years; to make sure we were subject to Tory cuts, under this greatest union ever. They gave not a toss for the people, but only for themselves.
They must have known that in an independent Scotland in which they could have had a reasonable chance of forming a government and one which would look after their people.
They'd rather have Knighthoods, Lordships and photo calls in the Rose Garden.
Trouble is they now will have real difficulty forming a proper government in the UK, unless they repeal the EVEL acts.
Labour are so ridiculous that even their die hard unionist voters are moving to Tories, so much so they won't have a single constituency seat! When they unleash the likes of Nikostratos who probably believes Scots bought their diplomas online and are fundamentally daft, they make it easy for SNP. Nobody likes being taken for a fool.
They certainly leave an awful lot of open doors. That is the trouble when your only policy is a deep hatred of the other party.
They continue to argue the unarguable becasue they think it might hurt the SNP. No matter how long this policy has failed for.
A perfect example over at Wings. They are still desperate to blame the Forth Road Bridge problems on the SNP. This despite the fact that a Liberal Democrat councillor, who was the Convenor of the authority managing the bridge until a few months ago, has made it clear that it was THEIR decision, and that it was not necessary to repair the bridge.
But it's carp carp carp, and never one properly costed policy from them. Not a single one. When asked what they would have changed in the budget ... answer came there none.
If our parliament actually had the power to deliver it, what we really need is an anti-austerity budget in the short-term. In the longer term we need something more Pro and less Anti altogether.
Yes, we could ahve an anti austerity budget, but not within the confines of yet anotehr massive cut by the Tories on how much we have to spend.
You'd think that they could see that everything in England is falling down around their ears.
Education, Health, Transport, Social Work, Policing, Housing, Environment...all down to their super austerity. The only thing increasing is (and every town should have one) Food Banks. George Osborne's only success.
Still the UK punches above its weight, fights in every war, has nuclear weapons and celebrated royal events more than anyone else. Fur coat and no drawers.
Pip Pip tally ho. Let's ennoble a few more people, while ordinary folk starve
No one really cares about what the hypocrites of the Labour Party think and I know there is little wiggle room in any Scottish Budget, but this one will result in substancial local authority job loses in areas of high unemployment like Dundee so I must admit I was not overly impressed.
Taking people out of employment as we know has a knock on effect to other people in employment as money is then not spent locally so there comes a knock on effect. Dundee for example has already suffered major job loses this year and and further reduction in employment will have a huge detrimental effect on the City. The lose of spending power to the economy, the loss of council tax payments etc will impact and no amount of V%As will replace these jobs. The cracks are already starting to appear and Dundee, and places like it, will be places that others visit only and don't stay, don't create jobs. I fear for the long term future to be honest and was disappointed by what I heard yesterday. I think the SNP overall have done very well but this may be the budget that see's that luck run out I think and a lot of areas of Scotland, maybe not Dundee but the marginals may start to vote a different way. They have not been radical enough I suspect although I totally understand there is not a great deal they can do just now, the trap has been well and truly laid and the SNP are being forced into the corner the unionists always planned.
For me, irrespective of the fears I have for Dundee, I feel the Scotland Bill has to be rejected by Holyrood, it is an even bigger trap and in the long run is a huge mistake. Scotland will lose out, there is no doubt in my mind about that and if this Bill goes through it will set back the independence movement as people become too afraid to lose what little they have. Unionists really know how to instill the fear and lay the traps, they have had 400 years of practice and an empire to hone their skills.
The situation is frightening, Bruce, but it is hard to see what else can be done with another large reduction in grant.
Of course he could have put up income tax. I'm not sure when the power will actually be there, but as we said, it would mean putting up tax on people earning £10,000, and having no in-work benefits to replace it.
He could have put up council tax. But for people who've hardly had a rise in 8 years, that would be hard to do.
Of course when I tweeted Labour to ask what exactly they would do, no answer came there!
I agree that we have to reject the Scotland Bill. There will be all sorts of shouting and screaming from the Unionists... You wanted more power and now you're turning it down.
I don't see why we can't have the powers that Jersey, Guernsey and the Isle on Mann have. Why do they think the Scots are too stupid to cope with what tiny islands can manage?
I'd like them to go look at what Denmark has done with Greenland and the Faroes.
Why do they have to make it so bloody hard. Other countries manage it perfectly.
PS I see that Dugdale, whilst criticising the budget, has failed to come up with a single idea of what might have been done differently. #FMQ
"Wings Over Scotland @WingsScotland 10m10 minutes ago Dugdale declines another chance to say what she'd do differently. She does, however, confirm that the SNP are BAD. #fmq"
flip flop flip flippy floppy flop flop flop on snp income tax raising powers.....which seem to be to the snp a bit like green krytonite to the snpers..
Still i shall cut the snp Gordian knot ( how many understand that i wonder ????)
anyways the idea of universal income tax raising is the redest of red herrings. Even if they were to raise income tax on all ( even snp msps etc ) there is no reason they why they couldn't give a rebate to the more deserving in Scottish society ie the working poor. they could even call it the Scottish Independent income payment. I mean that would really help struggling Scots and those who whould be asked to pay a little more can afford to pay and not in a beholden way to the English tax payer...
Wots not to like you even get to have your favorite word ' INDEPENDENT ' In the title and the snp get Scots to help Scots perfect surely??
Lets see how the nats do intellectual somersaults to deny the proposition ' wealthy scots can and should pay a fair share into Scottish taxes ' which can then in decency and fairness be used in a way that helps the Scottish people.
Well, I'm sure you know a lot more about how it would work than I do Niko. But we will would have to set up an department to hand back money to folk based on what they had to pay extra. That would be every person in the country who works or gets pensions. Then they would need to claim the amount. Remember that the tax information is all head by the government in England. The Scottish government has no information on how much people pay.
I suspect that the little it would make from the 40% tax payer (the 50% would just move over the border for tax purposes) would be needed to fund the operation and redistribution of the money..
But if I'm wrong I'll apologise.
If we could reduce VAT, I'd happily increase income tax. We can't.
BTW I'm not in any way representative of the SNP and I am not a member.
To thin to thin saying we are unable to do anything is untrue and you wouldnt be handing back money to everybody . you would be redistributing from the wealthy Scots to the lower income working Scots.
In all honesty your sort of reply exposes the problem the snp is increasingly going to find more and more of a problem. Blaming the English or in nat speak Westminster when to the ordinary Scot the issue could be addressed by Scots in Scotland.
Its time honored for the present Government of whatever hue to blame the last Government for all the present day ills. But its also time honored after a time the Government of the day OWNS the problems of the day..... that time is coming for the snp......
I'm not blaming the last government. I'm saying you can't run an economy with power over only one large tax. Blame on current government and Smith Commission.
I'm saying that all the constraints they have put on the taxation system have made it even more unworkable (which is of course what they wanted to do ...They want the government to fail).
I'm also saying that your solution, whilst interesting, is almost undoubtedly too complex and expensive for us to operate, given that the British government will not be likely to information share, or computer share...
They do this kind of thing.
For example, when Labour in Scotland suggested that we should pay people in lieu of tax credits, the UK government said that they might be inclined charge people tax on these payments. When Scotland voted to replace Council Tax with local income tax, the UK government said that they would refuse to pay Scotland the money for rebates if we weren't charging 'council tax'.
You can guarantee that the UK government is ready to stab Scotland in the back at the drop of a hat. Anything to make it impossible to implement plans that are good for the poorer people will be thwarted, for the obvious reason that they don;t want life to be better in Scotland for the poor, because otherwise their own poor might rise up...
Means testing costs a fortune, and people can cheat anyway. Unfortunately people cheat with bus passes because drivers don't look at photos, or passengers. But then, at all levels in all countries there are people who cheat, whether it's bus passes or Libor...
Trying to set up a system that would allow for taking tax off folk and then paying it back would be complex...and horrifically expensive. it would be stuff that laughing stocks are made of, and I'm sure Labour would criticise the government from wasting taxpayers' money.
The government could raise taxes and redistribute to the lowest earners, but the Westminster government would cut the block grant by the same amount raised in extra taxes. In essence Scotland's tax payers would be paying more, to receive less.
Ah Niko, just think if only you were not so brainwashed or is it brain dead, we could be about to become independent. We would have had all the tools of Government to hand, nobody to gain say or lay traps. I have a question for you, is there a certain size in your head for a socialist republic or country, does it have to be UK size or could you start smaller and work up? I am just curious as to why the Labour Party here fought so hard to prevent even the possibility of it happening. Why side with the Capitalist Tories, the Lords of Misrule?
Good question. The answer is that the masters in London, p[eople like Harriert Harmen, said that the people voted Tory and therefore want Tory policies.
Fear that the woman has not heard of Scotland where the Tories had their worst result for a very long time, and got one MP with a rather small majority.
That Tris explains Labour London but not the so called socialists here. I know that they were only looking after themselves, that they were expecting to keep their noses in the trough, never for a moment thinking that should they win the Referendum they would ultimately lose, but it is those people like Niko who still cling to the auld sang that they are International Socialists, how when they are do not recognise that you need to have nations. Why is Scotland not big enough to be a Socialist Republic or at least State if you like in the eyes of the Labour Party's Scottish Minions.
Under the snp misrule alongside their amoral supporters any state would be a reincarnation of Albanian Socialism. under Enver Hoxha .
Nations are the pox the curse of mankind ever since satan created Nationalism they have caused war famine disease and death .
Left to the nation state the four corners of the world would in flames....
You know what fascinates me is how the snp disciples will countenance any and all snp misdeeds criminal actions whatever. Justifying this by using any example of a Unionist found to have done the same or similar ,,,
as i say fascinating the idea that the snp and followers do not possess any morality or belief in right or wrong. If the snp do it its right if the unionists do its wrong but now the snp can do the same and more and its fine and dandy... How corrupt can Scotland become in a one party state very according to the snp followers,,,
Well Labour done it so now we can say the snp..
Do any of you except the proposition that some things are wrong no matter who does the act in any time or any place???
Nico, what illegal activities has the SNP undertook? Nationalism's bad if it is Scottish but, fanbleedingtastic if it's ukok? What a load of dross.
I believe you know "Scottish" Labour are done for, and are lashing out; like a wounded animal. No one here says that, the SNP are perfect but, they have done far more good in Scotland, than British Labour ever have.
Damn. I answered that comment of Niko's, and it's gone missing...
I think I said... One minute you are calling SNP the Tartan Tories, then they are like Hoxha.
Actually I was in Albania with the University but it was after Hoxha was dead. Ramiz Tafë Alia was kleader. it was an interesting experience. There was much that was bad, but a huge amount that was bad.
It was after the revolution that Albania became the bad lands.
Jeez Niko. One minute you are talking about SNP as the Tartan Tories, then you are saying that they would be like Hoxha's Albania (which I've been to incidentally, although he was dead by the time, and it was Ramiz Alia who was the dictator. Very interesting place.)
I'm unsure how you get to the one party state though. I mean they might be shit, but Labour is still there; so are the Tories, Greens and that other bunch. And Scotland wants to stay in the EU which has relatively strict rules about elections.
Perhaps Labour should investigate the reason WHY the SNP has won overwhelming votes despite losing the referendum.
But the SNP are not in a comfortable place in my view. They have an overwhelming presence in Scotland, highly likely to be emphasised come next May.
Labour fucked up the economy under Broon, and the Tories have to clear up the mess, although the manner which they employ is highly questionable.
The SNP are heading for a third term, and likely with an absolute majority. They have to deliver something over the next five years. Doesn't matter how Westminster ties their hands. Constantly blaming Westminster ain't going to work for much longer.
Perhaps that is Cameron's long term plan. Have the SNP lose a few seats but with the knowledge that Labour are an irrelevance.
zog
Slightly aside. They'd better get that bloody FRB fixed soon. Us mere mortals on the West Coast are having to suffer shorter trains.
You'd have thought that the most obvious thing for Labour to do, having gone downhill for the last 8 years, adn then having lost all but one of their seats in the UK election would be to ask themselves questions.
And indeed they did. Indeed Jim stayed on for a few extra weeks in order to do that and write recommendations for teh future.
It seems to me that good old Jim was up to his usual high standard. Either that or Kezia thought she knew better.
They got a boost in Scotland with a real left wing London boss, and even that doesn't seem to improve their popularity.
With everything possible going for them:
an 8 year old government; winning the referendum; a proper Labour leader.
Still they can;t seem to win.
I'd very seriously suggest that their habit of saying SNP baaaaaaaad to everything may well be to blame.
It's all very well to oppose. That is what opposition is for. (Please note Harriet). But at some point you have to come up with a credible alternative.
They never do.
"Whine whine whine...SNP are baaaaaaad."
"Well what would you do to make things better?"
"The SNP are Baaaaaaaaaaaad, whine!"
Sorry... That's pathetic. Get yourselves a proper leader and try showing that you are an alternative government.
At the moment I think. Kezia as FM, Jackie as Finance Secretary... and I fall about either laughing or shaking like a nervous wreck. That's before you start on some of the other dead wood.
The truth is that no matter how it sounds, if your budget is being cut every year, then you have to make cuts.
Giving the Scottish government the right to put up income tax is a non starter. It's why they agreed so readily to it.
You cant put up allowances, you change bands, all you can do is vary the tax, and what you do to one band you have to do to the other band.
Great.
What they have done is NOT sell off the NHS or privatise schools.
And pensioners still get free care, and bus passes.
The thing is (well, my view anyway), is that people are ignoring the "SNP Baaaad" bollocks, as it is had been banded around for too long. But that is precisely the problem for the SNP, with a little bit too much "Westminster baaad" as well. People switch off.
Income tax is not really a crucial issue to be honest. There is no bloody way any Scottish government will raise it higher than England, no matter what the cause. Had Swinney decided to raise taxes - which the opponents of the SNP surely wanted - then the SNP would be in serious shit next May.
Well yes. If anon is a Uk person saying that Scots show pay for their non austerity budget, then I agree.
If we were free to set our taxes and our pensions and benefits, then we would.
We'd use the money you people use to pay for white elephant weapons, punching above your weight, for grandiose palaces filled with massive numbers of useless royals, for royal aircraft and presidential planes, for going to war, for subsidising big business. By not paying for London's sewers, or their cross rail, or their high speed railways or their northern powerhouse...and allowing £16 billion of tax avoidance in the last year.
That's for starters. I'm sure other people will think on many other goodies we pay for but never get.
And sotland needs a Labour party like a hole in the head. Scotland's fine with the SNP.
ReplyDeleteUnless, you're a careerist politician, then you can bugger off to Westminster, sell your country short and get a knighthood or a lairdship, forgetting the downtrodden that got you where you are.
Too damned right there Jimnarlene, the only constituent they bother about is themselves.
DeletePut up income tax and forget conveniently that it puts it up for everyone. Then if you were stupid enough and thankfully not many fools in the SNP, they point the finger and tell you you are robbing the poor.
I want a revision of Council Tax, more bands, less tax taken off single people and small houses, I used to be one band down from Elizabeth Windsor and that is just ridiculous. Was this not a Tory tax after the Poll Tax debacle, and Labour never revised it, but then what can you expect from the Red Tories.
I'd like to see it gone altogether and a local income tax introduced< Helena.
DeleteIt was a daft scheme cobbled together in panic when the Poll Tax fell apart. It should have been scrapped, or at least revised a long time
ago.
Yes we can see why the snp drones would laugh at the idea
ReplyDeleteof a anti austerity budget............with the risible
idea of wealthy very wealthy many snp office holder being
of that strata paying a little bit more in Tax,
In fairness to lessen the burden on the lower income
earners within Scottish society.
Oh yes snp laugh out loud laugh out long at any attempt
at an anti austerity agenda...
Not got much of an understanding of how the Scottish Income Tax was set up Niko. No way that you can put Tax up for high earners without harming those at the bottom or middle. Away back to School and take Jackie,I obviously had an English Education, Baillie with you.
DeleteI tend to think it's best to try to understand these things and respond to them when sober.
DeleteNiko: My understanding is that the power over income tax means that whatever we do to the higher rates of tax, we must do to the lower rate of tax.
DeleteAs I understand it we cannot shift the limits of these taxes, and we can't change the threshold.So if we wanted to hit the super rich (not that there are many in Scotland) by putting the tax back up to 50p...something that Harrier Harman ruled out for the UK), we would have to increase all rates by the same amount.
We would not be able to take the threshold up to £15,000.
Even if we could, in a unitary state, change income tax levels in Scotland, it would result in the rich moving their main address to England or Wales, or registering their business there.
Income tax on its own is a very blunt instrument,a nd not being able to vary the bands, or introduce new ones, makes it virtually impossible to use.
Unless you can balance it by altering other large tax bases, like VAT, duty on cigarettes, booze, perfume, etc... it is not a power worth having. Labour will know this. They had the power to change income tax for 8 years, and they never used it. They could have taken it down a penny, for example, instead of handing money back as they did.
Jackie went to a private school, Helena, and you are right, it was in England.
Always good advice, Sonya. :)
Labour in Scotland fought, tooth and nail, for two years; to make sure we were subject to Tory cuts, under this greatest union ever.
DeleteThey gave not a toss for the people, but only for themselves.
Aye, true.
DeleteThey must have known that in an independent Scotland in which they could have had a reasonable chance of forming a government and one which would look after their people.
They'd rather have Knighthoods, Lordships and photo calls in the Rose Garden.
Trouble is they now will have real difficulty forming a proper government in the UK, unless they repeal the EVEL acts.
Labour are so ridiculous that even their die hard unionist voters are moving to Tories, so much so they won't have a single constituency seat!
DeleteWhen they unleash the likes of Nikostratos who probably believes Scots bought their diplomas online and are fundamentally daft, they make it easy for SNP. Nobody likes being taken for a fool.
They certainly leave an awful lot of open doors. That is the trouble when your only policy is a deep hatred of the other party.
DeleteThey continue to argue the unarguable becasue they think it might hurt the SNP. No matter how long this policy has failed for.
A perfect example over at Wings. They are still desperate to blame the Forth Road Bridge problems on the SNP. This despite the fact that a Liberal Democrat councillor, who was the Convenor of the authority managing the bridge until a few months ago, has made it clear that it was THEIR decision, and that it was not necessary to repair the bridge.
But it's carp carp carp, and never one properly costed policy from them. Not a single one. When asked what they would have changed in the budget ... answer came there none.
If our parliament actually had the power to deliver it, what we really need is an anti-austerity budget in the short-term.
ReplyDeleteIn the longer term we need something more Pro and less Anti altogether.
What we need is a government and not an administration and that will take Independence.
DeleteYes, we could ahve an anti austerity budget, but not within the confines of yet anotehr massive cut by the Tories on how much we have to spend.
DeleteYou'd think that they could see that everything in England is falling down around their ears.
Education, Health, Transport, Social Work, Policing, Housing, Environment...all down to their super austerity. The only thing increasing is (and every town should have one) Food Banks. George Osborne's only success.
Still the UK punches above its weight, fights in every war, has nuclear weapons and celebrated royal events more than anyone else. Fur coat and no drawers.
Pip Pip tally ho. Let's ennoble a few more people, while ordinary folk starve
Tris
ReplyDeleteNo one really cares about what the hypocrites of the Labour Party think and I know there is little wiggle room in any Scottish Budget, but this one will result in substancial local authority job loses in areas of high unemployment like Dundee so I must admit I was not overly impressed.
Taking people out of employment as we know has a knock on effect to other people in employment as money is then not spent locally so there comes a knock on effect. Dundee for example has already suffered major job loses this year and and further reduction in employment will have a huge detrimental effect on the City. The lose of spending power to the economy, the loss of council tax payments etc will impact and no amount of V%As will replace these jobs. The cracks are already starting to appear and Dundee, and places like it, will be places that others visit only and don't stay, don't create jobs. I fear for the long term future to be honest and was disappointed by what I heard yesterday. I think the SNP overall have done very well but this may be the budget that see's that luck run out I think and a lot of areas of Scotland, maybe not Dundee but the marginals may start to vote a different way. They have not been radical enough I suspect although I totally understand there is not a great deal they can do just now, the trap has been well and truly laid and the SNP are being forced into the corner the unionists always planned.
For me, irrespective of the fears I have for Dundee, I feel the Scotland Bill has to be rejected by Holyrood, it is an even bigger trap and in the long run is a huge mistake. Scotland will lose out, there is no doubt in my mind about that and if this Bill goes through it will set back the independence movement as people become too afraid to lose what little they have. Unionists really know how to instill the fear and lay the traps, they have had 400 years of practice and an empire to hone their skills.
I hate this country.
Bruce
The situation is frightening, Bruce, but it is hard to see what else can be done with another large reduction in grant.
DeleteOf course he could have put up income tax. I'm not sure when the power will actually be there, but as we said, it would mean putting up tax on people earning £10,000, and having no in-work benefits to replace it.
He could have put up council tax. But for people who've hardly had a rise in 8 years, that would be hard to do.
Of course when I tweeted Labour to ask what exactly they would do, no answer came there!
I agree that we have to reject the Scotland Bill. There will be all sorts of shouting and screaming from the Unionists... You wanted more power and now you're turning it down.
I don't see why we can't have the powers that Jersey, Guernsey and the Isle on Mann have. Why do they think the Scots are too stupid to cope with what tiny islands can manage?
I'd like them to go look at what Denmark has done with Greenland and the Faroes.
Why do they have to make it so bloody hard. Other countries manage it perfectly.
PS I see that Dugdale, whilst criticising the budget, has failed to come up with a single idea of what might have been done differently. #FMQ
Delete"Wings Over Scotland @WingsScotland 10m10 minutes ago
Dugdale declines another chance to say what she'd do differently. She does, however, confirm that the SNP are BAD. #fmq"
British Labour in Scotland need a strategy for getting back into power,in the long term.
ReplyDeleteAhhh... that might prove more than a little difficult.
Deletetris and the other snp apologists
ReplyDeleteflip flop flip flippy floppy flop flop flop on snp income tax raising
powers.....which seem to be to the snp a bit like green krytonite to
the snpers..
Still i shall cut the snp Gordian knot ( how many understand that i wonder ????)
anyways the idea of universal income tax raising is the redest of red herrings. Even if they were to raise income tax on all ( even snp msps etc ) there is no reason they why they couldn't give a rebate to the more deserving in Scottish society ie the working poor.
they could even call it the Scottish Independent income payment. I mean that would really help struggling Scots and those who whould be asked to pay a little more can afford to pay and not in a beholden way to the English tax payer...
Wots not to like you even get to have your favorite word ' INDEPENDENT ' In the title and the snp get Scots to help Scots perfect surely??
Lets see how the nats do intellectual somersaults to deny the proposition ' wealthy scots can and should pay a fair share into
Scottish taxes ' which can then in decency and fairness be used
in a way that helps the Scottish people.
I'm wondering if you have thought about how expensive it would be to collect tax from all the poor people and then give it back to them?
Deletetris
DeleteThats all right wot with things like the COMPUTER no probs
anyway that not much of a rebuttal caught yo on the hop there
didnt I.
I await your next attempt at covering up (shamefully )
for the snp .
Well, I'm sure you know a lot more about how it would work than I do Niko. But we will would have to set up an department to hand back money to folk based on what they had to pay extra. That would be every person in the country who works or gets pensions. Then they would need to claim the amount. Remember that the tax information is all head by the government in England. The Scottish government has no information on how much people pay.
DeleteI suspect that the little it would make from the 40% tax payer (the 50% would just move over the border for tax purposes) would be needed to fund the operation and redistribution of the money..
But if I'm wrong I'll apologise.
If we could reduce VAT, I'd happily increase income tax. We can't.
BTW I'm not in any way representative of the SNP and I am not a member.
tris
DeleteTo thin to thin saying we are unable to do anything is untrue
and you wouldnt be handing back money to everybody . you would
be redistributing from the wealthy Scots to the lower income
working Scots.
In all honesty your sort of reply exposes the problem the snp
is increasingly going to find more and more of a problem.
Blaming the English or in nat speak Westminster when to the ordinary Scot the issue could be addressed by Scots in Scotland.
Its time honored for the present Government of whatever hue to
blame the last Government for all the present day ills.
But its also time honored after a time the Government of the day OWNS the problems of the day.....
that time is coming for the snp......
I'm not blaming the last government. I'm saying you can't run an economy with power over only one large tax. Blame on current government and Smith Commission.
DeleteI'm saying that all the constraints they have put on the taxation system have made it even more unworkable (which is of course what they wanted to do ...They want the government to fail).
I'm also saying that your solution, whilst interesting, is almost undoubtedly too complex and expensive for us to operate, given that the British government will not be likely to information share, or computer share...
They do this kind of thing.
For example, when Labour in Scotland suggested that we should pay people in lieu of tax credits, the UK government said that they might be inclined charge people tax on these payments. When Scotland voted to replace Council Tax with local income tax, the UK government said that they would refuse to pay Scotland the money for rebates if we weren't charging 'council tax'.
You can guarantee that the UK government is ready to stab Scotland in the back at the drop of a hat. Anything to make it impossible to implement plans that are good for the poorer people will be thwarted, for the obvious reason that they don;t want life to be better in Scotland for the poor, because otherwise their own poor might rise up...
"Thats all right wot with things like the COMPUTER no probs"
DeleteOh Aye...
Never ever worked in local government then Niko?
Why do you think it's cheaper to let everybody have free prescriptions rather than charging *some* people?
Do you think public servants work for free? The bureaucracy involved in deciding who should have 'free stuff' and those who don't is immense.
You may be old enough to claim your bus pass. Just think about the clerical work involved in getting it.
Means testing costs a fortune, and people can cheat anyway. Unfortunately people cheat with bus passes because drivers don't look at photos, or passengers. But then, at all levels in all countries there are people who cheat, whether it's bus passes or Libor...
DeleteTrying to set up a system that would allow for taking tax off folk and then paying it back would be complex...and horrifically expensive. it would be stuff that laughing stocks are made of, and I'm sure Labour would criticise the government from wasting taxpayers' money.
cant collect taxes anymore why not? its to expensive
ReplyDeletethe Gideon argument there...Bah humbug !
Of course we can collect taxes. But we would have to set up and department to do that. The Brits aren't going to do it for us for nothing.
DeleteThe government could raise taxes and redistribute to the lowest earners, but the Westminster government would cut the block grant by the same amount raised in extra taxes. In essence Scotland's tax payers would be paying more, to receive less.
DeleteWhich is why NO government, at Holyrood, has used the existing tax varying powers.
DeleteNiko's in a bad mood.
Deletejimminy
ReplyDeletenot true not true
Which part? Or do you have your thinking muddled in it's very own Gordian knot? Try unraveling it, before using Alexander's method.
DeleteAh Niko, just think if only you were not so brainwashed or is it brain dead, we could be about to become independent. We would have had all the tools of Government to hand, nobody to gain say or lay traps.
DeleteI have a question for you, is there a certain size in your head for a socialist republic or country, does it have to be UK size or could you start smaller and work up? I am just curious as to why the Labour Party here fought so hard to prevent even the possibility of it happening. Why side with the Capitalist Tories, the Lords of Misrule?
Good question. The answer is that the masters in London, p[eople like Harriert Harmen, said that the people voted Tory and therefore want Tory policies.
DeleteFear that the woman has not heard of Scotland where the Tories had their worst result for a very long time, and got one MP with a rather small majority.
Very true.
DeleteThat Tris explains Labour London but not the so called socialists here. I know that they were only looking after themselves, that they were expecting to keep their noses in the trough, never for a moment thinking that should they win the Referendum they would ultimately lose, but it is those people like Niko who still cling to the auld sang that they are International Socialists, how when they are do not recognise that you need to have nations. Why is Scotland not big enough to be a Socialist Republic or at least State if you like in the eyes of the Labour Party's Scottish Minions.
DeleteHelena
DeleteUnder the snp misrule alongside their amoral supporters
any state would be a reincarnation of Albanian Socialism.
under Enver Hoxha .
Nations are the pox the curse of mankind ever since satan
created Nationalism they have caused war famine disease and death .
Left to the nation state the four corners of the world would in flames....
You know what fascinates me is how the snp disciples will
countenance any and all snp misdeeds criminal actions whatever.
Justifying this by using any example of a Unionist found to have done the same or similar ,,,
as i say fascinating the idea that the snp and followers
do not possess any morality or belief in right or wrong.
If the snp do it its right if the unionists do its wrong
but now the snp can do the same and more and its fine and
dandy...
How corrupt can Scotland become in a one party state very
according to the snp followers,,,
Well Labour done it so now we can say the snp..
Do any of you except the proposition that some things are
wrong no matter who does the act in any time or any place???
The point is Helena that they don't care about here. Orders from the Labour party are to suit South of England.
DeleteKezia is almost silent as was Johann.
Nico, what illegal activities has the SNP undertook?
DeleteNationalism's bad if it is Scottish but, fanbleedingtastic if it's ukok? What a load of dross.
I believe you know "Scottish" Labour are done for, and are lashing out; like a wounded animal.
No one here says that, the SNP are perfect but, they have done far more good in Scotland, than British Labour ever have.
Damn. I answered that comment of Niko's, and it's gone missing...
DeleteI think I said... One minute you are calling SNP the Tartan Tories, then they are like Hoxha.
Actually I was in Albania with the University but it was after Hoxha was dead. Ramiz Tafë Alia was kleader. it was an interesting experience. There was much that was bad, but a huge amount that was bad.
It was after the revolution that Albania became the bad lands.
Agree with all that Jim.
DeleteJeez Niko. One minute you are talking about SNP as the Tartan Tories, then you are saying that they would be like Hoxha's Albania (which I've been to incidentally, although he was dead by the time, and it was Ramiz Alia who was the dictator. Very interesting place.)
ReplyDeleteI'm unsure how you get to the one party state though. I mean they might be shit, but Labour is still there; so are the Tories, Greens and that other bunch. And Scotland wants to stay in the EU which has relatively strict rules about elections.
Perhaps Labour should investigate the reason WHY the SNP has won overwhelming votes despite losing the referendum.
ReplyDeleteBut the SNP are not in a comfortable place in my view. They have an overwhelming presence in Scotland, highly likely to be emphasised come next May.
Labour fucked up the economy under Broon, and the Tories have to clear up the mess, although the manner which they employ is highly questionable.
The SNP are heading for a third term, and likely with an absolute majority. They have to deliver something over the next five years. Doesn't matter how Westminster ties their hands. Constantly blaming Westminster ain't going to work for much longer.
Perhaps that is Cameron's long term plan. Have the SNP lose a few seats but with the knowledge that Labour are an irrelevance.
zog
Slightly aside. They'd better get that bloody FRB fixed soon. Us mere mortals on the West Coast are having to suffer shorter trains.
You'd have thought that the most obvious thing for Labour to do, having gone downhill for the last 8 years, adn then having lost all but one of their seats in the UK election would be to ask themselves questions.
DeleteAnd indeed they did. Indeed Jim stayed on for a few extra weeks in order to do that and write recommendations for teh future.
It seems to me that good old Jim was up to his usual high standard. Either that or Kezia thought she knew better.
They got a boost in Scotland with a real left wing London boss, and even that doesn't seem to improve their popularity.
With everything possible going for them:
an 8 year old government;
winning the referendum;
a proper Labour leader.
Still they can;t seem to win.
I'd very seriously suggest that their habit of saying SNP baaaaaaaad to everything may well be to blame.
It's all very well to oppose. That is what opposition is for. (Please note Harriet). But at some point you have to come up with a credible alternative.
They never do.
"Whine whine whine...SNP are baaaaaaad."
"Well what would you do to make things better?"
"The SNP are Baaaaaaaaaaaad, whine!"
Sorry... That's pathetic. Get yourselves a proper leader and try showing that you are an alternative government.
At the moment I think. Kezia as FM, Jackie as Finance Secretary... and I fall about either laughing or shaking like a nervous wreck. That's before you start on some of the other dead wood.
The truth is that no matter how it sounds, if your budget is being cut every year, then you have to make cuts.
Giving the Scottish government the right to put up income tax is a non starter. It's why they agreed so readily to it.
You cant put up allowances, you change bands, all you can do is vary the tax, and what you do to one band you have to do to the other band.
Great.
What they have done is NOT sell off the NHS or privatise schools.
And pensioners still get free care, and bus passes.
And the poor don't have to pay bedroom tax.
There's no money to do anything spectacular.
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2015/12/18/pensioners-charged-falling-fee-tendring-district-council_n_8837776.html
DeleteOn the other hand, in England, if you are old and you don't have £26, tough shit.
The thing is (well, my view anyway), is that people are ignoring the "SNP Baaaad" bollocks, as it is had been banded around for too long. But that is precisely the problem for the SNP, with a little bit too much "Westminster baaad" as well. People switch off.
DeleteIncome tax is not really a crucial issue to be honest. There is no bloody way any Scottish government will raise it higher than England, no matter what the cause. Had Swinney decided to raise taxes - which the opponents of the SNP surely wanted - then the SNP would be in serious shit next May.
zog
Exactly.
DeleteI'd love to hear what Jackie Baillie would do, and see it costed out.
But so far all she's done is criticise what the SNP have said they will do.
A proper opposition would have some costed alternative. Even Labour in England can manage that.
True Scotland does need an anti austerity budget PAY FOR IT YOURSELVES !!!
ReplyDeleteWho?
Delete"Pay for it yourselves"
DeleteSTOP ROBBING US THEN.
Well yes. If anon is a Uk person saying that Scots show pay for their non austerity budget, then I agree.
DeleteIf we were free to set our taxes and our pensions and benefits, then we would.
We'd use the money you people use to pay for white elephant weapons, punching above your weight, for grandiose palaces filled with massive numbers of useless royals, for royal aircraft and presidential planes, for going to war, for subsidising big business. By not paying for London's sewers, or their cross rail, or their high speed railways or their northern powerhouse...and allowing £16 billion of tax avoidance in the last year.
That's for starters. I'm sure other people will think on many other goodies we pay for but never get.