Sunday 3 February 2013


We are better together (well not the ones on the right obviously)
No, really, we are better together: we pay, they get the jobs and the spend
Just in case you doubt that we are better together

He's well podgy, isn't he? I expect he doesn't have to go to a food bank . He's certainly better together.
The sick and the disabled are definitely better together, well at least the masochistic ones are.
He doubts that they are better together
They'll be better together in the House of the Lords
He's better together with his young friend Mr Werrity
In our better together nation, the real creep is the previous defence secretary (above)
THEY are all better together
Or are we better together with the Tories we didn't vote for?


  1. So the 'positive' case for independence is ... you don't like the tory government? That you don't like some MPs democratically elected in Scotland?


    No answers to the SNP quagmire of confusion concerning its EU (non) policy. No answers vis-v-vis the SNP currency position (separating fiscal and monetary unions? Eurozone anyone?!)

    No answers, just a splurge of hatred, anger and non-arguments.

    The people deserve better.

  2. Did you get out of bed on the wrong side, Dean?

    Some people say that never having another Tory government isn't a good reason for independence.

    Well, I'm not sure why. It's not my only reason but it is one of them.

    We have a Tory government that we didn't elect, and it is changing our lives in the most appalling ways.

    Our poor are getting far poorer; our sick are being killed off by cruel and unreasonable tests (what you CAN do is interesting, but it doesn't increase your earning power if employers look at you and shake their heads saying: "There are 4 or 5 million fit and well out of work people, why would I choose you?"

    The working disabled are being put out of work; the Tories want to take us out of Europe; they want to stop equality legislation; the want to strip our employment rights; they want to fight wars all around the world; they can't seem to go a few months without poking their ignorant (and I mean that. What does Cameron know about Mali, or Afghanistan, or anywhere except Chipping Norton) noses into other people's business. They insist on having useless nuclear weapons (the generals say thy have no function) while not having enough money to buy armoured cars, or 2-way radios or boots or decent food for our troops, which, poor souls, are sent to fight usually Muslims in countries where there is oil or access to oil.

    I don't like any of that... Do you?

    And that's only a part of it. If we had a government worth its salt it would be spending money on roads (which are now falling to pieces), bridges, schools, etc, etc, etc. ON getting people into work and creating demand to get the economy going.

    Defence, Foreign affairs, social security, pensions, taxes, are handled directly, but everything else in our lives is dependent on the Barnett Formula and spending limits set by a government we didn't elect.

    And we need not have have this government lording over us. Scotland votes Labour. Scotland doesn't vote for these elite.

    I think that is a very good reason for no longer wanting to be a part of this country.

    I'm seriously ashamed of the way the UK government treats its young, its old, its sick and its poor is a pretty sad way to live your life. My continental friends are appalled.

    There. These are arguments. Numerous world organisations have said that Scotland would be a very rich country. Even Alistair Darling reluctantly agreed that we could manage on our own.

    We could live like Norwegians; we could treat our people decently, if the Tories didn't wage war against them.

    Would YOU like to give me a cogent argument for better together? One that doesn't depend on punching above our weight; having the 4th largest military in the world; having embassies all over the world; being a permanent member of the security council and having the means of blowing Japan out of the sea; and best of all... being a big player in the EU (pfffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff!)

    Because these are the reasons Cameron gave, along with a shared history (although he forgot that history is actually longer than 300 years, so we have a history that is NOT shared too). Oh and he thinks Scotland is a beautiful place.

    I'm singularly unimpressed with any of these reasons. They don't affect everyday people. They affect the elite. I'll never sit on the security council. I'm unlikely to need an embassy in Ouagadougou or Ulan Bator (and if I did, I'd go to the French one). I doubt I'll ever be in need ofo a nuclear submarine, and as for playing a major role in the EU, we don't unless being a pain in everyone else's arse is what you call a major role. And now the Tories want to take us out, so that argument fell flat on its bottom.

  3. tris

    Please read this and respect what the snp say
    and Me and Deano

    "Someone who does not agree with us should be treated with respect. Politics is all about different viewpoints. Never make personal attacks on any individual or engage in general abuse of opponents. The key to victory is positive persuasion. Our case is a strong one and there is no need to become involved in personal attacks."


    The more they attack us the
    we become

    For united we stand
    Divided we fall

    in the end Deano Good will triumph over evil
    and the Nationalists will be cast out into the
    political wilderness once again

  4. tris and assorted Nationalists

    Is there for honest Poverty
    That hings his head, an' a' that;
    The coward slave-we pass him by,
    We dare be poor for a' that!
    For a' that, an' a' that.
    Our toils obscure an' a' that,
    The rank is but the guinea's stamp,
    The Man's the gowd for a' that.

    What though on hamely fare we dine,
    Wear hoddin grey, an' a that;
    Gie fools their silks, and knaves their wine;
    A Man's a Man for a' that:
    For a' that, and a' that,
    Their tinsel show, an' a' that;
    The honest man, tho' e'er sae poor,
    Is king o' men for a' that.

    Ye see yon birkie, ca'd a lord,
    Wha struts, an' stares, an' a' that;
    Tho' hundreds worship at his word,
    He's but a coof for a' that:
    For a' that, an' a' that,
    His ribband, star, an' a' that:
    The man o' independent mind
    He looks an' laughs at a' that.

    A prince can mak a belted knight,
    A marquis, duke, an' a' that;
    But an honest man's abon his might,
    Gude faith, he maunna fa' that!
    For a' that, an' a' that,
    Their dignities an' a' that;
    The pith o' sense, an' pride o' worth,
    Are higher rank than a' that.

    Then let us pray that come it may,
    (As come it will for a' that,)
    That Sense and Worth, o'er a' the earth,
    Shall bear the gree, an' a' that.
    For a' that, an' a' that,
    It's coming yet for a' that,
    That Man to Man, the world o'er,
    Shall brothers be for a' that.

  5. Yes, I'm pretty much in agreement with that Niko. I was wondering how you square it with calling the SNP scum on one hand and on the other the Tories (and presumably their little friends the..erm, whatsits... which we tend to forget are in government with the Tories

  6. And I agree with Burns too!

  7. Dean

    So the 'positive' case for independence is ... you don't like the tory government? That you don't like some MPs democratically elected in Scotland?

    You will have learn that actual facts supersede the tick box exams you were taught to pass.

    Scotland has no influence over the red or blue tory government in Westminter as those 149 seats in the SE of England decide who governs Britain which is why there is hardly a fag paper width to separate the two main party policies trying to con those voters.

    Not seen the latest poll as the Yes side has gone up and the No's are slipping into the undecided because more and more people are disgusted with the scare stories and blatant lies coming from your camp. Why are we Better Together?

  8. tris
    Yet the local Govan MSP, Johann Lamont, leader of the Labour Party, sat beside Humza Yousaf, the SNP Glasgow list MSP and Scottish Minister for External Relations, and jointly discussed ways in which the Scottish Parliament could intervene.

    Their unity reflected growing revulsion and anger on the ground. Also present on the platform were representatives of the small local community-based housing associations whose very existence is threatened by the cuts. At least one has now pledged that no tenant will be evicted for "bedroom tax" arrears.

    The meeting was remarkable in a second sense as well. This was the return of a practical radicalism, the conviction that some kind of action was possible.

    Dave Moxham, deputy general secretary of the Scottish Trade Union Congress, reminded the meeting that it was Govan in 1915 that led the first great rent strike against profiteering landlords - ultimately forcing the government to introduce rent controls.

    And he also reminded the meeting, as did a local Labour councillor, that the Scottish Parliament has legislative power over housing - even if it did not control housing benefit.

    It could impose rent controls on private landlords just as in 1915 and change the whole dynamic of the housing market.

    Govan Law Centre solicitor Mike Dailly took this practical radicalism a step further. Housing law could be amended to make evictions for bedroom tax arrears illegal - and substitute other forms of debt recovery. He has since drafted the required amendment.

    Mike Dailly of the Govan Law Centre said that people could be homeless because of the UK government reforms.

    He said Holyrood should act to minimise the consequences of the change.

    But, speaking on Sunday Politics Scotland, SNP MSP Linda Fabiani claimed little could be done until the Scottish parliament has more powers.

    There you have it tris the snp stand by and watch and do nothing whilst
    Scottish people suffer or perhaps they see them as cannon
    fodder in their separation campaign


    the strange thing is if someone owns there house. even whilst paying a mortgage
    is on benefits this tax does not apply
    but then the Torys believe these are their supporters perhaps those in
    privately owned housing should have the home counted as an asset
    which they must sell to bring them within the limit of savings allowed
    for welfare entitlement.

    Hard to see how any right wing Tory if being consistent could argue against my idea
    but they sure as hell will.

  9. tris

    The difference is I do it with humour and a little love
    on the other hand some nats you know who they are
    really mean to be nasty and horrid.

  10. Niko I hope Labour Hame is paying its full council tax or are they exempted from being empty/derelect?

  11. Well the first part of that is great.

    I've nothing against a Johann Lamont that is working to help keep people in their houses. And she REALLY couldn't wish for a better ally than Humza. That guy will bust every muscle he has to help folk. He's one of my heros.

    So, what can be done? Dunno. Fabiani says nothing. Humza and Johann think maybe there is something. I have to say that Govan Law Centre does good work, although it's very partisan. It is saying the government must do something, but it hasn't said what. it's a law organisation. Its suggestions would be helpful, rather than its carping.

    The problem is finding the money to make up the difference. Holyrood has already found money to make up the overall 20% deficit in Housing Benefit. I'm guessing they simply can't find any more.

    I doubt Holyrood can pass a law defying the London government...remembering that London can overrule anything that Holyrood does (although it would be risky to use that too freely). All they could do is try to find a way of getting additional money into the system.

    Whatever, I'm glad to see that Humza and Johann are working together on it. If there was more of that and less back-biting between the two maybe we could defeat more Tory policies.

    Obviously, if they start putting home owners out of their houses, the Tories would be in dire straights. After all they told people that this was the way to power and freedom.

    It's going to be hard for them to put home owners on the street. But if I were them I would start worrying now about that because when the interest rates go up, they are going to be pitching tents on the central reservations...

    This is a policy that comes about because of the ridiculous rents in London and the South East, where people are claiming rent rebates costing tens of thousands a year. (This is the result of course, of allowing landlords free reign on rents, and pushing the price of property sky high. Moronic policies both.)

  12. Cynical Highlander claimed:

    "Scotland has no influence over the red or blue tory government in Westminter as those 149 seats in the SE of England decide who governs Britain which is why there is hardly a fag paper width to separate the two main party policies trying to con those voters."

    So you are claiming that Scotland not only has no influence over who will be the next government of the UK, but more - there are no 'marginals' in Scotland.

    Let us examine those claims shall we?

    First, Scotland will have no influence over the next UK Govt.
    Well, given that we are living in a hung parliament, and there is a decent likelihood of another one after 2015; I'd say that rather disproves your initial first claim.
    Every seat counts if parties have very small or no absolute majorities, just check out the documentary 'the night the government fell' (here, a link so you can watch it: Like in 1979, in cases where 'every vote counts' the importance of each constituency influence is magnified. Thus, 2015 will see enhanced Scots influence, not reduced or irrelevant influence. FACT.

    The second leg of your claim implied there are no marginals in Scotland so we don't matter (unlike the random number of seats you selected 'from the south of England').
    You are wrong, here is a list of seats from Scotland with majorities of less than 4,000 which belong to parties not Labours that could have a DECISIVE impact on a 2015 hung parliament/tiny majority outcome:

    1. West Aberdeenshire & Kincardine
    Currently LibDem, majority of 3,684, on current numbers the SNP would gain this.

    2. Argyll & Bute
    LibDem again, a four-way race (some 'irrelevant seat eh Cynical?). Majority of 3,431 - again they are odds on to lose this to the SNP

    3. Dunbartonshire East
    2,184 majority - odds on Labour gain

    4. Dumfriesshire, Clydesdale and Tweeddale
    lightly over 4000 granted, but in face of 2015 anti-Tory backlash this could fall. Current maj 4,194, SNP target seat surely come 2015.

    5. Edinburgh West
    LbDem seat with a majority of 3,803. This seat could fall to either Labour or SNP.

    There, 5 BATTLEGROUND seats which could MASSIVELY impact on a hung parliament or tiny majority outcome in 2015.

    So much for Cynical Highlanders NONSENSE claim that only 'english marginals' matter. Maybe you need to study harder before sitting your cybernat exams in the future?

  13. Niko. Why have you put another I in your name?

    Ahhh... that's love you are doing it with... so when you call me a swivel eyed snp scum, you mean it with love?


  14. LOLCH... certainly derelict. I doubt the ex-technology tzar has forgotten how to switch on his 'puter!!!

  15. "Ahhh... that's love you are doing it with... so when you call me a swivel eyed snp scum, you mean it with love?"

    chuckle. This question made me laugh. Is it rhetorical Tris or are you expecting our Niko to answer you?


  16. Tris

    Is this a first for me, sent to the naughty step on MR, and my only crime pointing out to Niko all these right wing policies he hits out at were all started by the Labour party.


    You must have been off school the day they did sums. Just how do 59 Scottish MPs stack up against 600 plus English MPs? On the day I did sums thats under 10% of the votes.

    Perhaps CH maybe should have said only English seats matter, which is the only sum us cybernats care about and want corrected, if thats ok with you old chap.

  17. "You must have been off school the day they did sums. Just how do 59 Scottish MPs stack up against 600 plus English MPs? On the day I did sums thats under 10% of the votes."

    In a hung parliament every single constituency influence is magnified. Thus it doesn't matter if Scotland only has 5 'marginal' seats by comparison, because 2015 may not yield a absolute majority like 2010, and if it does it will be tiny -- thus you only need one.

    1. Dean

      Absolute crap old chap. do the arithmetic. Scotland gets Tory governments that the English voters, mainly in the South East, vote for.

  18. Dean. I don't want to pre-empt CH. I'm sure he has an answer for you too. But I'd like to say the following:

    If every seat in Scotland went to Labour, and every MP voted against what England wanted, England would win.

    Only a couple of weeks ago, Labour and the SNP voted together 46 votes out of 59 for no benefit cuts on the poor. (Let's be honest, the Liberals probably don't want these benefit cuts either, but were forced into voting for them by their place in government.)

    England and its Tory majority voted for benefit cuts on the poor.

    What did Scotland get?

    Benefit cuts on the poor.

    From what I read above from Niko, Labour don't want bedroom taxes, and the SNP don't, so it's back to the same figures. Still we are going to have to find single bedroom premises soon for people chucked out of their homes by the Engish Tories (and one Scottish one).

  19. Oh I'm sure that Niko will find some answer, Dean... He's plotting right now, I bet.

  20. Good god no, Dubs. We don't even have a naughty step, CH. The Tories are bringing in a naughty step tax on nationalists.

    What gave you that impression?

  21. It is untrue Tris for CH to argue that 'only' marginals in England matter.

    Given that we may have another hung parliament, with Labour being largest party; his argument is untrue and absurd.

    The numbers change depending on largest party in a hung parliament scenario. Thus, those 5 seats I've named above have a significantly magnified importance. CH however doesn't seem to believe that Scottish marginals exist never mind matter in a hung parliament scenario with Labour being the larger party...

  22. Tris

    I am sorry to announce we are all doomed, doomed a tell yeh.

    The Torys are targeting Scottish seats in the next general election.

    Looks like it could be a Tory majority of seats in both Scotland and England with a human dynamo like Ruth in charge.

  23. Dean we could send 59 Green MPs to Westminster their influence would be minimal in any UK gov.

    Westminster is a stitched up democracy to suit London and the SE England and that area holds the balance of power which is why Labour had to swing to the right to garner their votes. There is an explanation online somewhere and if I come across it I will post it for you.

    Bankers, Bradburys, Carnage And Slaughter On The Western Front

    With the exception of a few thousand very powerful people, the entire world’s population, all seven billion of us, are trapped ... trapped into a criminal debt creating banking ‘system’ that has taken hundreds of years to perfect and to come to fruition. This ‘system’ results in enslavement and servitude. It creates dreadful unhappiness amongst ordinary decent people and causes wars, debt, starvation, pollution and environmental destruction. It feeds on greed, fear and division. It forces people onto the corporate treadmills of mass mindless production and mass mindless consumption. It uses lies, deception, intimidation and entrapment at all times. It is a system that is so clever and so cunning that most of the world is completely oblivious to its existence. It is a system that allows a few winners at the expense of a huge number of losers. It is a system that considers itself to be unbeatable and indestructible and is now so arrogant that it believes it can control everything and everyone on its terms. It is a system where psychopaths and sociopaths can flourish. And without question the centre of this system, the heart of this global corporate beast is the innocent sounding Square Mile known as the City of London.

    I like that BBC News poster tris as the guy looks like Lindsay Roy MP, it must be an omen.

  24. No Dean, I see what CH is saying.

    At the end we have 59 seats. out of 650. Our voice is nothing.

    If we vote Labour and our voice is heard, it's because England voted Labour, as it did for some time. Now they are voting Tory.

    And we still vote Labour.

    We don't matter at all.

  25. I can't get in to the FT site, but LOL I'll take your word for it, that they are targeting Scotland.

    One has to ask why?

    What on earth do they think they are going to get here, except a kicking (metaphorical, in the electoral sense Dean!)

    I understand that win or lose in 2014 we will still have to send some MPs... why in the name of goodness do they think we would want to sent Tories so that they could stuff us?

    If we win, I'd advise sending 59 SNP. At least they have no divided loyalties. It's all about Scotland for them.

    Wee Ruth bless her. I should imagine she'll be dumped pretty sharpish.

    The trouble with that kind of power early is that you've nowhere to go when you cock it up.

    Except of course the House of the Eternally Asleep.

  26. So he does CH... I never noticed. I'd kinda forgotten about him... thank goodness.

    I wondered when someone was going to mention the posters....

  27. Came across the map tris its here.

    Dean thinks we live in a democracy and his teachers haven't helped in showing how flawed it is because they are BritNats and believe in Rule Britannia.

  28. Keep these photo coming Tris.

  29. Why Labour doesn’t need Scotland

    - which means that for 62 of the last 67 years, Scottish MPs as an entity have had no practical influence over the composition of the UK government. From a high of 72 MPs in 1983, Scotland’s representation will by 2015 have decreased to 52, substantially reducing any future possibility of affecting a change.

  30. I haven't forgotten about Roy an ex Headmaster who won on a sudden influx of postal votes and the registers going missing after the election.

  31. Cynical,

    "BritNats and believe in Rule Britannia."

    No I'm a social democrat, and a unionist thus I oppose 'nationalism' in all of its forms. You are a person unable to see the issues and people though any prism other than nationalist parochialism - but I'm not.

    Don't make the mistake of thinking the majority of Scots are as parochial as yourself.

  32. Niko said "but then the Torys believe these are their supporters perhaps those in
    privately owned housing should have the home counted as an asset
    which they must sell to bring them within the limit of savings allowed
    for welfare entitlement."

    Firstly the bedroom tax doesn't affect home owners because after a time limited period in which they only get a contribution to mortgage interest which likely won't equal the amount due, they don't get any housing support. Not even the neoliberals in Westminster can reduce nothing. If they sell their houses, where to they live? Once the money from the sale is gone, the taxpayer will be paying a damn sight more for their housing, And I guess you are volunteering to tell someone who's been working for decades that they've to leave their home,

    As for Dean and his cognitive dissonance if you are a unionist you are automatically a BritNat unless you are agitating for one world government, or at least a federal Europe,

  33. I mean all those posters are very negative.

    If that's the Nat campaign, you have to agree, it's very negative.

    It makes you wonder why the nats keep accusing the Better Together of being negative.

    Some sort of transferance maybe??

  34. Dean you are in self denial of your own status in British nationalism.

    I want democracy you prefer dictatorship.

  35. Dean,

    "I oppose nationalism in all its forms" - Surely you realise that virtually every indepentent country in the world was formed out of nationalism. I seem to recall you saying you were going to emigrate to Australia. When you do will you be deriding their nationalism and make attempts to persuade them to be subjected to the United Kingdom? Good luck with that!!

  36. Dean,

    It's true that many folk will vote yes to keep themselves safe from the tories. They will do it because they don't like being governed by a party they didn't vote for. They will do it because they actually are genuinely terrified of the great harm this party will do. I invite you to contemplate the significance of this and how this squares with your idea of the Union.

    While you consider that, consider this: Today the ruling tory government will put in place some of the most cruel and draconian policies we have ever seen. Aided and abetted by the Lib-dems, while the labour party shifts ever more to the right. To me, the greatest danger to the Union - are the Unionist parties. For you as supporters of Union, you feel you only have to win the referendum to save the Union. For me and many others, you really should have been trying to save the Union and its institutions from the stupidity of politicians. Salmond, doesn't want to destroy the Union, he simply wants to get Scotland out it. He wants as do many others, to have Scotland responsible for its own governence. Scotland did not surrender its identity to the Union, nor did it surrender its independence but it did surrender its government to the Union. I want that back, because I fear the damage that will be done to my nation if we stay in the Union, and also because I think it right that Scotland should govern itself.

    I am still waiting to hear why you think it shouldn't and what the issues most pressing to you are.

    To Braveheart: The posts are negative because there is nothing positive to say about the issues causing most concern. The arguments from the Unionist side are strangely silent on a lot of issues but very vocal when it comes to the "learned helplessness" of Scotland and its people. You tell me how am I engage with a negative vision of my nation in a positve way?

  37. panda paws

    The UK has no singular ethno-cultural identity, thus it is in fact impossible for there to be a British 'nationalism'. Nationalism, as the dictionary definitely, 'Devotion to the interests or culture of one's nation.'

    It is manifestly obvious to everyone except Cynical that the UK has no singular national 'British' culture; nor are we unionists simply because of that identity culture.
    As a Labour Party member I'm a unionist because I'm a democratic socialist. Nationalism has no place in a progressive internationalist worldview.

  38. Dean

    Well we could get into a discussion of civic versus ethno-cultural nationalism. We could also get into a discussion of independence versus nationalism i.e. I'm not a nationalist but I'm pro Scottish independence and have been since the Callaghan government - the last socialist UK government. But what I'd really like to unpick is why you are a member of New Labour if you are a socialist. Not even John Prescott believed Tony Blair was a socialist. I'd say neo-liberalism has no place in a progressive interationalist worldview (PIW). Indeed I'd also say illegally invading other people's country is not the PIW that I would seek to have. But then I wouldnt be talking about PIW in the first place not whilst the sick and disabled are being hounded to death, the jobless being treated like scum, food banks opening up everywhere and people unable to heat their homes assuming they've not been evicted from them. To me that's socialism, not political jargon like PIW. The red flag should fly at half mast if it forgets WHY the movement was set up in the first place - for the people - and set up by founders who passionately believed in Scottish home rule.

  39. Some excellent posts on this thread, but others simply seem to think sticking their fingers in their ears and saying na, na, na is the answer.

  40. That's a good one CH... I'll use that next week!

  41. Will do Marcia. They seem to be popular! :)

  42. Oh yes, I remember that now, CH. I did some work across there including standing outside a polling station on the wet cold day ... and being insulted by Labour supporters who were confusing Gordon Brown with Mother Theresa ... then most of the votes came in by post and as soon as they were counted, disappeared with the rubbish, because they has supposedly been stored in black rubbish bags, just next to the bins... odd that!

  43. Dean. It's nothing to do with that. It is quite neatly summed up by Cynical Highlanders poster, or I suppose quite simply by the number of things that we don't vote for that, none the less, we get, because the SE of England wants them.

  44. In British elections you see a British parliament elected, and home rule via LABOUR's devolution ensures the democratic deficit is largely a redundant issue.

    The answer is more devolution, not separatism 'cos you happen to dislike the will of the people.

  45. Panda: I must have been wrong there too, then. I thought that the bedroom tax affected the rent rebate and the council tax rebate. Is it only the rent part?

  46. They are not really negative. They simply point out, BH, the crap that we put up with.

    We have already made positive cases for independence.

    National pride; much more money; money to spend on things WE believe in (ie not WMDs, embassies in every single country in the world; 4th largest military in the world; royal family with 6 palaces and various other state owned homes; seat on UNSC.

    We could save that money and spend it on social housing, schools, roads, trains, medical care, old people's care...all of which is under funded.

    We could live like Norway. Instead we live in poverty, in dilapidated towns, poor housing, bad health.

    And we pay more than our fair share to the London government to subsidise other parts of this unequal union.

  47. LOL JOhn. Yes, try to tell the Australians that they would be better off being ruled directly by Cameron...

  48. James Morton: Nicely put.

    We see things happening at the behest of this government, voted for in England, and not in Scotland, that are completely life changing. They say that they do this is the name of the deficit or the debt (often not actually knowing which one they are talking about).

    But of course they are not. (But in any case neither of them seems to be budging.) They are doing it because the less they spend on the people at the bottom the more and more hideously rich they and their friends can get.

    Now that's not the only reason for wanting independence. There are those who have wanted the governance of their country in their own hands long before Mrs Thatcher or Mr Cameron, and their anti-social policies, but it is A reason. And it seems to me, that deciding how your country is run is a very good reason for voting for something.

    I'm mystified by Labour supporters who don't see this as a massive opportunity to make the country in their image.

    I am not suggesting that an independent Scotland would be forever governed by the Labour party, but it seems to me that they would have a head start, and that the Tories, who, at least over the past 35 years, have wreaked havoc on the working classes, would be a hugely reduced force.

    Why does Labour have so little confidence in its own ability to run a decent country for its people, along the lines of centre left political policies?

    What are they frightened of?

  49. Dean, for unit that doesn't have any nationalist tenancies, the waving of the red white and blue over the jubilee and the London games was quite astounding ubiquitous last year, to the advantage of the unionist camp.

  50. Tris

    My understanding was that bedroom tax only affects rent rebates but now you have me worried since I'd put nothing past them!! I think I'll do more research but I was at a recent meeting attended by a Glasgow welfare adviser and he was talking of rent only, not council tax.

  51. "In British elections you see a British parliament elected, and home rule via LABOUR's devolution ensures the democratic deficit is largely a redundant issue.

    The answer is more devolution, not separatism 'cos you happen to dislike the will of the people"

    And yet Dean, you stated earlier that there is no "British ethno-cultural" identity, infact you expanded the theme by saying that there is no British Nationalism and that your unionism is not defined by identity culture. I take that to mean that your vote is determined by the party which seems to serve your interests better? If that is indeed what informs most voting intentions then a push for seperation is simply people voting for something that serves their interests. A "british" parliament that does not serve "Scottish" interests is one not worth voting for. If the only way we can secure our nation from the insanity issuing forth from Westminster is Independence, then what choice do we have? To you we must surrender to the will of the majority of English voters that decided the tories were worth a punt. Now that argument only works if there is such a thing as British identity and British Nationalism and that they are accepted norms in politcal life. But as you yourself have said, we are culutrally and nationally distinct, so then idea of accepting the English voters choice of Government seems to me to be absurd.

    Again I urge you to contemplate the significance of the position were Scots are not prepared to accept a westminster Government they did not vote for, and what this ultimately means for the Union.

  52. Juteman

    Na na na na na na na ouch ! Pushed me finger to far into me ear

  53. I had a look Panda, and it seems to refer to Housing Benefit ... I'm not sure whether that is rent or both. And what about people who rent from the private sector? It only talks about social housing.

    I thought that social housing had, long ago ceased to be subsidised rent housing...

    You are wise not to put anything past them.

    A government that can do what this one is doing , is, it seems to me, capable of any kind of wickedness.

  54. never mind Niko, it will come out the other side, no problem.

  55. @Dean

    'Devotion to the interests or culture of one's nation.'

    I notice that you didn't elucidate on the 'interest' part I wonder why!

    Meanwhile Scottish Nationalists approach things in a different way than your supporters.

  56. It seems to me that, of course, there is a British identity.

    It is represented by the union flag, John Bull's, British way of life, British standards and values that our prime ministers always refer to when talking about how America shares them...

    (They seem to be poking of noses, organising other people, torturing, and being complicit in torture, getting good deals out of war zones...although Brits are a bit crap at that compared with the likes of Mr Cheney, selling loads of weapons and lecturing on human rights for other people.

    Although the queen is quite distinctly Queen or England and Queen of Scots, she is assumed to be British, as is her large and expensive family.

    London is British; Downing Street in British, the Home Counties are British... Even Andy Murray is British.

    This is unlike the EU in that there are very few things that you would firstly describe as being European rather than of the European nation from which they come.

    German efficiency; French Style, Polish hard work, Danish openness, British stiff upper lip...

  57. CH... I've taken some of the pictures from Stu's site.

    Thanks for the heads up.

    Yes, British Nationalists in NI certainly don't give themselves a very good name. Attempted murder! And they are supporting the Britnats here.

    I hope that someone from the Better Together campaign tells them not to bring their foul violence here...

    In the interests of balance, there are some right violent thugs on the independence side too in NI.

    As Stu says, I don't remember there being a single death because of Scottish nationalism.

    1. Tris

      And lets hope we keep it that way.

    2. Absolutely Dubs. Although it's not far from here, and quite a few mates come from Northern Ireland, the life they have lived is so incredibly far form anything I can imagine.

      That's why we must keep this civilised.

  58. Tris

    I spent three days in Belfast on holiday with two American friends, in September, before all this flag stuff started.

    It is a modern vibrant city that was great to visit. I hope all this gets sorted soon. The welcome we received everywhere was great.

  59. Yep, Dubs. All my NIO mates say that it has become a far better place since (to be fair to them) John Major and then Tony Blair grasped the nettle with the Irish Taoiseach and the NI politicians.

    This latest violence is throwing away that prosperity. No one is going to invest while there are nut jobs around prepared to kill and burn over a flag.

  60. tris..I've been thinking about that referendum question again. 'Should Scotland be an independent country'.
    We might actually get a lot of people voting 'Yes' who don't actually want independence but think that we should be independent ;)
    Clever !

  61. LOL... yes Monty. Well now wouldn't that serve Cameron right for banging on about how he would expect the Scottish government to accede to the wishes of the Electoral Commission.

    I read in the Record about some people who felt that the second question would make them vote YES but the original one wouldn't have...

    Weird... but that's what you get when you try to work out what effect a certain group of words will have on people... You never can tell.

  62. I keep forgetting that you now have a 'reply' button but when the 'unionists' attack us as swivel eyed subnormal humans, I needed a rant as its about time that they start looking in a mirror first and see themselves in the same vane.

  63. Aye all the mod cons here now CH, although I forget its there too.

    Sometimes I wonder how unionists see me, or us, any of us... honestly.

    One of us is deluded, I know that for sure...

    But I genuinely believe that the main motivating force for politicians is the House of Lords, Expenses and the hopes of playing some sort of role as an important person on the world stage.

    It's a bit of a laugh as everyone knows we are there only because America lets us be... but hey. We all need some fantasy.

    1. Away to watch Scotland Tonight as the illustrious bunker women is making a guest appearance and Nicola is on interviewing someone from 'Borgen' (whatever that is)!

    2. Borgen is a Danish "West Wing" type drama about the first female states minister i.e PM. It's very good and fascinating to watch a story about a small (c5 million people) country in Europe who apparently aren't too poor, too wee or too stupid to run their own country.

      Yes I've just found the reply button!

  64. Oh... do let us know what she looks like these days... Should be interesting. It's been so long.

    I'm off to bed with a book. I don't want nightmares!

  65. Good photo's tris
    Here's another

  66. ha ha ha ha ha deewal. Absolutely brilliant!

  67. Fareweel to a' our Scotish fame,
    Fareweel our ancient glory;
    Fareweel even to the Scotish name,
    Sae fam'd in martial story!
    Now Sark rins o'er the Solway sands,
    And Tweed rins to the ocean,
    To mark whare England's province stands,
    Such a parcel of rogues in a nation!

    What force or guile could not subdue,
    Thro' many warlike ages,
    Is wrought now by a coward few,
    For hireling traitors' wages.
    The English steel we could disdain,
    Secure in valor's station;
    But English gold has been our bane,
    Such a parcel of rogues in a nation!

    O would, or I had seen the day
    That treason thus could sell us,
    My auld grey head had lien in clay,
    Wi Bruce and loyal Wallace!
    But pith and power, till my last hour,
    I'll mak this declaration;
    We're bought and sold for English gold,
    Such a parcel of rogues in a nation!

  68. Especially for you Niko.

    You may well quote Burns on internationalism but you won't find a word of his in favour of he union!

  69. Oh lord no, Boorach. Not Burns' favourite subject, the union.

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