DIFFERENT VIEWS REACHING THE SAME CONCLUSION

Munguin, Tris and Tris's mum had the pleasure of spending the early part of Saturday afternoon at Club 82, as guests of the Dundee United Social Club, along with another 60 + people who had come along to hear three speakers talk and answer questions on independence. 

It must be fantastic to have the ability to keep a room's attention for an hour and a half on a Saturday afternoon, with a match against Ross County getting closer by the minute (in the end a 2-1 win for United!!)

But Stewart Hosie, Allan Grogan, Duncan McCabe and chairman and MC, Stuart Fairweather, did just that.

Stuart introduced the afternoon reminding us all that the last date for voter registration is 2nd September. Important to remember that if you haven't registered to vote, you must do it by that date, or you will lose your vote. Particularly important for first time voters and 16/17 year olds voting in the referendum.

Each of the speakers then talked for a few minutes.

Stewart Hosie talked about how successful the Scottish economy was, but how many more jobs we could create if had the power to use the tax system to our advantage.  He reminded us that the oil was a bonus; that in fact even without it we could be a successful country, but with it, we had the opportunity to use this bonus to Scotland's advantage. He pointed out that Scotland and Iraq were the only countries in the world with oil and no oil fund. Norway hadn't started their oil fund until 1996, and 18 years on there was an embarrassment of money, which brought in more in interest that the oil itself.

Allan Grogan (Labour) talked about the shame of a very rich country with food banks! He gave horrific statistics about how many kids lived in poverty; how many people had to use food banks, and then had to return some of the food because they couldn't afford the electricity to heat it. 

The British establishment were the separatists. They had made this the 4th most unequal country in the EEA. And they blamed anyone but themselves and their rich friends for the mess the country was in. Lazy dole scroungers, immigrants, sick and disabled people... And more cuts were coming down the line... but we could still afford Trident. 

Duncan McCabe from Radical Independence spoke of the shame that 49% of Scottish pensioners had trouble paying the electricity/gas bills in the supposedly 6th largest economy in the world. He deplored the fact that since 1979 the divide between rich and poor had widened every year and he shared a list of world league tables in which Britain was always relatively far down the list... like equality; happiness; human development. He compared that with the fact that the UK was in the top 6 of arms traders. 

There was a lively questions section at the end with all the speakers contributing. In a short article like this I've had to leave out so much of what was said, and I won't deal with anything like all the questions here. 

But it is worth mentioning that the BBC and its bias were talked about, as was the possibility of fiddling of postal votes.

The BBC was just more or less written off. Nothing they reckoned would change it. It was the state broadcaster doing what the state needed it to do. The newspapers were largely English owned big business in league with mainly the Tories. Nothing would change that.

As for ballot stuffing, it was felt by all the panelists that there was sufficient scrutiny involved that that wouldn't be a problem and all three expressed no worries at all about it. I think it was Duncan who said... "look, they have the telly, we have an army of foot soldiers winning arguments on the doorsteps. 

Throughout the discussion three representatives for three separate organisations agreed on fundamentals and disagreed on some of the finer points.  But as they pointed out, this is not a party political election. This is a referendum on who runs Scotland... Is it people living and working in Scotland, or is it people from Kent and Sussex. 

The time for individual policies comes after the 2016 Scottish General Election when we elect our first independent government.

Someone congratulated Stewart Hosie on being the one man here who was working flat out to get rid of his own job.

He responded that, as Winnie Ewing once said: "We didn't go to Westminster to settle down; we went to Westminster to settle UP!"

Munguin's thanks to the organisers of the event (Bruce McLaren, I think) and the hosts, and to Andy Clark for inviting us. A positive and inspiring afternoon.
***********
Over a million signatures now, but if you haven't signed it...

http://www.yesscotland.net/join-in/sign-the-declaration

THIS IS WHAT A LABOUR AGENDA SHOULD BE ABOUT, Ms LAMONT.

Today Allan Grogan addressed the Law Society's fringe meeting at the Labour Party conference in Perth.

According to James the esteemed Mrs Curran has never met Mr Grogan, despite her being a member of  Labour for 38 years... and despite him being leader of a sizeable faction of Labour members, opposing their party on Scotland, and her being the shadow Scottish spokesman.

I hope she managed to find time in her busy diary to go along today a listen to him. In cases she didn't make that time, I'll include his speech here, so that she can catch up with it in her leisure time.

I’d like to thank the chair and the Law Society for inviting me here. It is a great honour to speak with you all here today, particularly on such an important issue.

Labour for Independence consists of members, voters, supporters, former voters who felt the party left them not the other way around. Trade unionists, ex councillors, former Lord Provosts and the former chair of Scottish Labour. We believe in the ideals and principles of the Labour Party. But we also believe that independence is the best way forward for the people of this nation.

Scotland is at a crossroads, but it is not one between unionism and nationalism, rather the kind of society we live in today and the kind of society we can have. It is a choice between the status quo and real change for the better.

What is the status quo we live in today? Scotland, in this United Kingdom according to the Scottish Outlook Campaign, is in the midst of a humanitarian crisis. We are part of the 3rd most unequal society in the Western World. Life expectancy in some parts of this affluent nation is lower that the Gaza Strip. Most shockingly of all 1 in 4 Scottish children are living in poverty. 1 is too many, but 25% is an absolute disgrace. All of this is happening in a country that is the 14th richest in the world per capita.

These are not just some statistics read out in this hall, this is the reality of the society we live in today. Look about you; it’s happening to friends, family neighbours. Parents are going hungry to put food on the table for their kids, pensioners have to choose to heat their house or cook a meal.

But fear not friends, throughout the deprivation, the poverty and abject squalor we still have enough to pay for bankers bonuses, MP wage increases and find £100 billion to renew an outdated nuclear programme which has no place in a civilised modern society.

We are not better together, we can do better and we must do better. We need to create a society which will look after all of its citizens not just those who can afford to have their say.

 

Now there will be many here today who will argue that child poverty in Liverpool is just as important as it is in Scotland, and I agree with you. But this is the crux of the argument. This, rather than labelling everyone who votes yes a nationalist is the debate we should be having within the party.

Let me begin by asking the question to all those waiting for the British road to socialism. How close are we to achieving this? I have campaigned for a better society within the UK and there are many here today who have spent a lot longer doing so than I, and yet we seem to be further and further away from making this a reality.

Independence can lead to not only a more prosperous, more equal Scotland. It also increases the opportunities for our brothers and sisters in Northern England and other areas within the UK. Independence can lead to a more federalised Rest of UK. Giving these areas more say and more control in how to make their communities better. If nothing else we can lead by example proving to them that it is possible to be an economically vibrant, socially just, fair and equal society. One which Hardie and Maxton would be proud to call home.

How do we achieve this society within the UK? Are we to pin all of our hopes on a Labour victory in 2015? Even if we are successful, what kind of Labour government will we have? A Labour Government in which Ministers like Chris Bryant blame unemployment on immigrants working in Tescos? A Defence Secretary who has pledged the commitment to maintaining our nuclear deterrent. Most worryingly of all we will have a Labour Chancellor committed to the Tories austerity programme. A programme in which only 10p in every pound of cuts has been endured so far.

Because the reality is that in order to be elected, Westminster Labour are chasing the tail of the Tories who are chasing the tail of UKIP further and further right in a never ending spiral towards darkness. Shackled to Westminster the Scottish Labour Party is going along for the ride.

When did we begin to consider Scotland a something for nothing society, misquoted or not? When did means testing become Labour policy? For each according to ability to each according to their need, a cradle to grave universal system that lies in the very fabric of our party. For the first time in our history we are on the wrong side of this. This can change with independence.

Churchill once said “Some men change their party for the sake of their principles; others change their principles for the sake of their party.” Here today in this hall we can say that the members of the Scottish Labour Party need do neither. By voting yes in September we can remove the need to change our beliefs to win votes in the Home Counties. We can return to being the party of the people of Scotland that protects the rights of the workers, stands up for families and individuals who need a helping hand, which protects our unions, our poor, sick and elderly. That’s the party I grew up believing in and we can be that party again.

There is a saying within Labour for Independence. Vote yes in 2014 vote Labour in 2016. We can have Labour Party in the Scottish Government that rebuilds social housing, removes privatisation of energy, railways and Royal Mail. A party which removes the anti trade union laws imposed by Westminster. That uses our finite resources to rebuild our industries and creates renewable energy.

In 1997 we began this journey by voting yes to devolution, let’s complete the job. A real Scottish Labour Party, a Parliament decided by the people, representing all the people, a society which reflects the needs, wants and aspirations of the people of Scotland, these are all within our grasp. The choice is in your hands, continue the journey by voting yes, or be faced with the never ending roadblock of voting no.

I’m voting yes for change, yes for the ideals set out by our party’s founders so many years ago.

Yes for a better Scotland.

Thank you.

A STATEMENT FROM CHARLES GRAY...

...in support of the Labour voice in the independence campaign. 

This was written exclusively for use for Labour for Independence. 

(Please share far and wide. Allan)

Even as the Festive Season approaches there is still a continuing interest in next year's Referendum to decide Scotland's future. It's subject to sometimes intense discussion in pubs and clubs, in homes and carefully, but formally in schools, colleges and universities. While many may still have to make up their minds, a fast growing number of Labour Party members and voters, and many more Trades Unionists are already determined to vote YES.

Older persons are mindful of the early Labour & TU movement of Hardie, McLean, Gallacher, Wheatley and Johnston and their like: men who birthed a vision of social equality and equal rights for all and in whose simple, but ardent ambition was Home Rule for Scotland.

Given, and recalling, the suffering endured by hundreds of all ages in those not so far off days, it would be foolish to contend that the present Scottish Parliament would be sufficient to satisfy their hopes; hopes which had clearly contained the dream of an Independent Scotland.

And now there is the increasing call by folks from all walks of life: ordinary men
and women, scholars, business and young people all joining in the call for Independence for our beloved ancient land : SCOTLAND.

Hasten the day!

REPORT OF LABOUR FOR INDEPENDENCE CONFERENCE -- Allan Grogan

I have been delighted to see the coverage of our policyconference this past weekend. In what one social website described as one ofthe top ten events in Glasgow last weekend. Perhaps it was being in thehistoric STUC building which made the event such a creative and interactiveexchange of ideas, in which all views were respected and listened to. I wasvery proud of the members who were in attendance and more excited than ever todeliver a Labour vision post independence.

 The event began by affirming our belief in a return to Clause IV and support for removal of Trident. Such views have been long held in the hearts of many Scottish Labour households and I am delighted to see the support for their return.

 Following this, we spent the rest of the morning listening to and then discussing the merits of The Common Weal with Jimmy Reid Foundation director, Robin McAlpine. This meeting really was the perfect start to our conference as you could see the light bulbs go on in our members' heads. The Common Weal is an exciting vision; one which we believe will bring equality, social justice and prosperity to Scotland. We are delighted to strongly support the concept and seek to find a Labour vision of this proposal.

 The Common Weal discussion set the stage for the rest of our conference. Throughout the two days, I was excited as expert session leaders provided enough to raise lively debate on all matters from drug addiction to investment. I would like to thank all of our invited guest speakers including, Robin McAlpine, Dr John MacDonald, Jenny Robertson from Phoenix residential treatment centre and perhaps our biggest star this weekend George, a former addict who had the courage to share his story with us.

 With only two days it is only right that we do not confirm ourselves to all that was discussed and in areas such as health, education and the economy more work will need to be done. However, I am very pleased to announce these decisions voted, and approved by our members:

1. Reject Nuclear Weapons in Scotland
2. Support Common Weal concept and contribute to it
3. Support full-employment Keynesian development policy
4. Support Major Banking reform in the New Scotland
5. Support the establishment of a Nationalized Scottish Central Bank
6. Support for 2nd language education from the age of 7 years.
7. Support an introduction of a living wage
8. Establishment of a state owned oil company such as the Norwegian company
9. Not to join NATO but to explore other joint defence international agreements
10. Expansion of universally free childcare.

We hope that this will be the beginning of our vision of what an independent Scotland can look like. It is an exciting time within our country. The SNP will offer their vision in November, we look forward to other parties and organisations announcing their visions as we are; to give the people of Scotland a choice of what our nation can become with a yes vote.

Our message should be simple, vote yes and choose from these visions. Choose no and get more of the same.

I hope many more of you will join us and help to shape a Labour vision of what Scotland could be like after a yes vote.

Allan Grogan

Leader

Labour for Independence.

"YOUR TIME HAS COME , DARLING"

By Allan Grogan

Twa Rich Embra Lawyers

Going against the grain can be a daunting, yet sometimes, uplifting experience. But in politics it is often viewed as an ink blot on your copybook – by both sides. Disagreeing with the Labour Party in its opposition to independence and founding Labour for Independence guaranteed an uncomfortable ride. Suspicion among some Nationalists as to our intentions was to be expected. But it has been closer to home where we have faced our harshest critics.

Labelled a front for the SNP by no less a figure than our Deputy Scottish Leader Anas Sarwar, we at Scottish Labour for Independence (SLFI) have taken these accusations on the chin while insisting that independence will not only be good for Scotland, but for the Labour Party too.

Funnily enough, we never attended an SNP conference, meeting or social event. So it came as some surprise to me when I read that our former Chancellor, eminent Labour politician and Chairman of the Better Together campaign, Alistair Darling, was to appear at the Scottish Conservative conference in Stirling.

If nothing else comes from this referendum, surely this indicates a seismic shift within the Labour Party in Scotland. The sight of a senior Labour politician at a Tory conference must have Keir Hardie, Bevan, Smith and Dewar burling in their graves.

The Labour Party's very foundations are fairness and equality, so in the interests of these values let's ask: If I were to represent SLFI by speaking at the SNP conference, how many of my party members would call for my immediate expulsion?

Other questions about Mr Darling’s curious decision need to be asked. Was our Scottish leader Johann Lamont, for example, aware of this engagement? If so did she try to forbid it?

If the answer is yes, then surely Mr Darling’s actions present a clear and present danger to the Scottish Labour Party.

The truth is that many within Labour are no longer sure where their party lies within the No camp. Was it a voice of protest from within the membership calling for a removal of Labour from Better Together that prompted the creation of United with Labour? If this is the case, then why is Mr Darling still the head of BT? More importantly, why is he given carte blanche to speak at another party's conference?

One Posh Boy from Oxford

I accept that currently SLFI is in a minority within the Labour Party in relation to the referendum. I also concede that when I speak, I do not do so for the Labour Party; I do not have that mandate. But nor does the Labour leadership, because they have acted without a members’ vote on such a crucial issue.

Yet I want to make clear that our issue is not with the Labour Party, the members, supporters and voters... we are still among you. Our battle is against the top brass taking our party to the brink of the abyss in Scotland.

In Westminster we are seeing Labour chase the tail of UKIP and the Tories. The desire to gain election-winning votes in Southern England is causing Labour to be further removed from its values and founding principles. One need only look at Ed Balls for proof of this. Despite demanding a Plan B for three years, he now declares Labour will continue the austerity package. This means further cuts, harder days and nights ahead for the poorest and most vulnerable. Some of the poorest right here in this country.

This is not why I, nor most Labour members in Scotland, joined the party.

Independence is not, of course a silver bullet. There is no magic potion to Scotland's ills. But many a learner driver will tell you that the only way to succeed is to have full control of all the levers of power.

For those within my party who say that a change of government is all that's needed, let me say this: If the imposition of the Bedroom Tax, ATOS deciding disability benefits, and anti -trade union laws, are not enough to convince you Scotland can do better, then the fact that the Labour Party in Westminster either voted for or abstained on these issues surely must.

It occurs to me that the longer Labour for Independence has been in existence the further the UK Labour Party moves to the right. But the more this happens, the more it proves our message to be true. Labour for Independence doesn’t just believe in Labour policy. We believe in what Labour truly stands for. We believe in a vision of a society based on equality, fairness and justice. We believe in a society for all. This vision is not only shared by members of our party but by former members, voters and supporters yet to come.

We are proud of Labour's trade union links, not because they fund us, but of who and what they represent. Most importantly we are proud to support Scottish independence, not as a final destination, but a starting point to a better, fairer and more socially just society.

At the Stirling Conference there were those listening to Mr Darling - and there were many more outside protesting the UK Government’s actions.

Labour for Independence was outside, with the people, where Labour belongs.

  

This is the full version of the extract that appeared in the Daily Record on Saturday 15th June, 2013 and has been lifted by me (Tris) from the Labour for Independence site.

FROM THE DAILY RECORD...AND THE HERALD

*CLICK  TO ENLARGE

AND....Poor old Ruth.

According to this report in the Herald, right at the start of his speech Cameron had to make a plea for the Tory's Scottish leader...

"We will only succeed if we are in touch and in tune with modern Scotland and in Ruth, you've got the ideal leader.

"Ruth wasn't born into the Conservative Party. She chose it and she understands that to win we've got to be a party for all of Scotland, a party focused on securing Scotland's place within a strong UK, but not afraid to look at how devolution can be improved. I back her every step of the way."

REAL LABOUR POLICIES FROM ALLAN GROGAN

There was a debate tonight at Dundee University, at which Allan Grogan made a speech. I guess many people who would have liked to have gone were unable to do so. Here is Allan's speech for the event. 


Tonight I’d like to talk about the impact that the Labour party, and more specifically its supporters can and will have in the independence referendum. I’d also like to talk about the reasons why independence is so important for the future of Scotland and for the Labour party. 

Firstly I’d like to briefly explain a little about Labour for Independence and how we came about. As a student at this university, I attended many debates prior to the 2007 Scottish elections. One of these was on the independence movement. I asked the Labour party delegate about supporting Labour and Independence and was fobbed off with the line, 

‘If you want independence vote SNP.’ 

Now I can understand his logic behind this, of course in order to have the referendum we did need an SNP government. But this was the standard Labour line whenever I asked the question to the higher ups in the party. 

I began Labour for Independence to see if I was alone in my thinking, to see if there were other Labour voters who felt we would be better as an independent nation. Well as we have seen with our continual and growing support that there are many more of us who feel this way within the party. 

As our group evolved and the more I spoke with former voters, we came to realise that Labour, in particular the Scottish Labour party no longer reflected real Labour party ideals, nor the needs and ambitions of most people in Scotland. 

Now from a political point of view this is understandable, It is unfortunate for us, that we are such smart voters. In Scotland the SNP hold the majority partly due to the dissatisfaction of Scottish Labour. But in General Elections, Scots will vote for Labour in a straight choice between them and the Tories. So It’s hardly a surprise when the Westminster Labour party see Scottish votes as safe ones and introduce policies that appeal to needed voters, mainly Middle England and London. 

But for a Scottish Labour party to peddle these policies out, flying against the traditions and fibres of the Labour party in Scotland is a disgusting act of political careerism. And for the Leader of the Scottish Labour party to come out and say we have a ‘something for nothing society’ was desecrating the memory of Keir Hardie. 


So it is clear to us, that the only way for our party to return to our founding principles, to return to being the party of the people of Scotland, is to be removed from the shackles of Westminster which can only happen in an independent Scotland.

To return to the Labour party we believe in we must have Scottish independence, and to have a strong, successful, socially just Scotland we must have a real Scottish Labour party at the heart of it. 

Labour for Independence will play an important role in this referendum, we show that this is not a nationalist issue. The decision on independence shouldn't be about whether you liked Braveheart or not, it should be deciding what kind of society you want to be. 

So let’s look at the Scotland we live in today. 

-Run by Westminster we have a society in which the rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer.

- We have CEO’s of banks which destroyed our economy taking bonuses of millions of pounds while allowing small business’s to collapse and family homes are foreclosed. 

- We have a government in London, handing out an allowance for us to spend while taking far more from our resources and trade.

- We have a Tory party in power which won one seat in our country. 1.7% of Scotland’s MP’s running our affairs in which 9% of the politicians represent Scotland. 

- We have a Westminster Parliament slashing financial help to those who need the most help, while the Scottish MP’s voted unanimously against it. (Editor's note: Labour and the SNP voted against it. The Liberals and the Tory voted for it).
 
- We have a Parliament which while cutting benefits to the country’s poorest called for a 32% pay rise. Apparently £65,000 isn't enough to survive. 
So much so that Tory MP Andrew Bigden said 

“ I know MPs who will say in private that every year they are getting poorer.”

“A man or a woman who’s very capable, doing very well in their profession, whatever that may be, with a family, are they going to be willing to take that pay cut, look their children in the eye when it’s Christmas say you can’t have what you normally have because Mummy or Daddy wants to be an MP.”


We’ve all heard of wife swap but maybe Mr Bigden should go on Benefit swap and see how it is for mums and dads on benefits or minimum wage to tell their kids that they won’t have anything this Christmas. 

Most importantly, this is a society that is the 4th most unequal in the world. A society 1 in 5 Scottish children are living in poverty. Parents are going without meals to make sure their kids are fed okay, pensioners are having to decide between heating the house and eating dinner. 

Independence is our best chance to change this, to shape our nation making it fairer, more equal. Giving our children the chance of a better future. 

So what kind of Society do we want to have? Following a yes vote the Scottish government has promised that all parties will play a role in the negotiations for an independent Scotland. 

Because of this it is important for all parties to set out their vision of an independent Scotland. In light of the refusal from Labour HQ to do this. Labour for Independence will set out what we believe are real Labour policies.

One of the biggest changes we promise to make is that we will never object to proposals based on our core principles for the sake of political gain. As we have seen so many times these past few years. 

The first policy that we have already announced is something I care about very passionately. We, like 80% of the Scottish people, support a complete removal of all nuclear weapons from our land. We believe that a nuclear arsenal on our doorstep is both dangerous and unwarranted in this nation. We hope that we will lead the way forward as an example to all nations to remove such weaponry.

Now, I have a little confession to make, and I’d like to get it off my chest. In the Scottish Labour leadership elections I voted for Johann Lamont. There was no great merit in any of the candidates, but the one reason I voted for her was her opposition to Trident. Well all I can say to her is I hope that seat at the shadow cabinet meeting was worth it. The fact she went against her own beliefs, the safety and financial security of the Scottish people for a hoist up the greasy pole of the Labour party tells you everything you need to know about her. 

LFI will adhere to the founding principles of the Labour party of fairness, equality and justice. We will also strive to keep in place some of our greatest creations in the NHS and the Welfare State. We will seek ways to improve, but we will never remove our belief in free education and healthcare for all at the point of service. 

An abolition of a minimum wage and in its place a LIVING wage. One which reflects real living costs and prices. A living wage will protect the most vulnerable, removing most from the poverty line and costing the country less in Tax Credits, and other forms of income support.

We support a simplified version of the Welfare system. With real incentives to work. This system should be fair and support those who can and do work. The welfare system must again return to the basis of its creation to support the needy and most vulnerable. That is why we support the removal of means testing on disability allowances.

We are also open to the possibilities of nationalisation or re-nationalisation of energy, transport and care work. We are not a political group which promotes nationalisation for the sake of it. However in tough economic times we believe companies which are making a profit in these areas are doing our nation a disservice. The profit from these industries would and should be returned to the Scottish people as lower prices or placed into the country’s finances. 

These are the visions of a socially just Independent Scotland and they are the visions of a real Scottish Labour Party. 

Labour for Independence, Yes Scotland and all pro-independence movements will work hard to promote a positive message for independence. We know which society we want for our future. We believe in Scotland, we don’t think were too wee, too daft, too stupid to run our own affairs. 

The vote on the referendum next year will be the most important of our lives. While the Tory back benchers claim their EU referendum will be the first time in 40 years for our voices to be heard. Our referendum will be the first time in 300 that our voices will be heard. 

Scotland is probably the most frustrating place in the world. We have so much to offer, so much to be proud of, so much still left to achieve. If we can only just believe in ourselves. 

I believe the people of Scotland will make the right choice, the choice of hope, the choice of change. The choice of a better nation.

I urge you all to think differently, Think Labour for Independence, Think Yes!

(The emphases in bold are mine - Tris)-