Wednesday, 2 December 2015


Oh well, it is done... The British Empire is yet again at war.

And how they cheered and they clapped, although clapping used to be, or so we were told, discourteous. Perhaps we misunderstood, and it's only discourteous when second class members of the house of Commons do it. Fine when Eton and Oxford Toffs do it.

So, they voted with their consciences, and that's all you can say. And if or rather when, it all goes wrong, I hope their consciences are strong enough to take it. it's on their shoulders.

As Alex Salmond said (see Wings article), there were many good speeches. I was impressed by people who were asking why, as Salmond and Corbyn did, we weren't trying to deny Daesh their finance, their weapons, their communications systems. People from opposition and government benches alike.

At the end of the debate in scenes that will be broadcast around the world, people saw our Hooray Henrys cheering and shouting for joy because they're off to kill people from the Middle East again. Well not them obviously... the plebs do that for them.

I suspect that this scene may be used in the recruitment material of the Daesh movement. 

Scotland voted 57-2 NOT to go to war, but hey ho...there we are again pooling and sharing the vast financial expense of punching above our weight while our people queue up at food banks and our OAPs have the second worst pension in the developed world, leading to deaths for malnutrition and hypothermia. And now we'll also have to pool and share death and destruction.

I'm not sure at the moment how Wales or Northern Ireland voted, but I know that this is not being done in Scotland's name. Of that much I'm proud. 

Of the rest I am deeply deeply ashamed.


  1. Not in Scotland's name, not in my name, not in my wife's name and not in my children's name.

    1. Nor in mine, and my wife posted the link to her facebook page.

    2. I too have signed the petition, not in my name either. Fortunately I have never trusted the British Government enough to want to add to their population, too many Scots have died for Britain. We are regarded as second class citizens, sorry subjects, in this country, and treated with contempt, I have no idea what makes those like Niko tick and somehow I do not want to.

    3. Thanks for the link Jim. Signed and posted on.

  2. tris,

    I agree with you. This is a ridiculous "by jingo!"

    Best wishes

  3. A agree wholeheartedly with what you are saying. But whom are the plebs you describe will do the work for them, I do hope you are not referring to our armed forces whom will only be following orders, if so I think that's an unfair description of these people who only do what our pleb of a government dictate!

    1. Unknown, we are all PLEBS to the Tory Boys, I doubt that Tris meant anything other than that. As for following orders, seem to remember that this is no defence, it was not acceptable to the Allies at Nuremberg therefore it is no excuse today.

    2. Helena has it exactly, Unknown.

      I do't think of anyone as plebeian, but the impression one gets from the London parliament is that anyone under the rank of Hon isn't considered quite "one of us".

      Little people do the fighting and the dying... and the Rt Hon Pigman sits in his command bunker pretending he's mrs Thatcher.

  4. 63% of Welsh MPs voted against.

  5. tris and other % silly billys

    Little point in whinging still its what you lot do best and love
    the snp took part in democratic vote and lost . now having taken part
    saying Scotland voted no is crap,,,Scotland voted yes to bombing Syria
    by the very act of taking part in the vote, if Scotland or rather the snp wanted
    to delegitimise the vote in Scotlands name they should not of taken part.

    see Hilary Benn gave a stirring speech rousing the Torys etc
    harking back to Mussolini as most would say WHO? and all fascists
    how good it sounded back in 1932 but 80 years later its a bit tattered
    and worn out (like the union flag the nats would say)
    half dozen planes to war hardly battle of Britain stuff is it.

    And the final joke was his praise of the International Brigade of
    which most were real socialists unlike himself who also under
    present UK law would off been arrested and imprisoned as
    terrorists ...wot dont he understand.

    Yep we can all sleep soundly in our beds tonight knowing
    out there some poor Innocent men women and children are
    being blown to bits mutilated and killed. and we made it happen .

    No matter what political reasons are given for war, the underlying reason is always economic
    ~A. J. P. Taylor

    1. Well Niko, you're right. There is NO point whinging about losing. We shall probably be killing innocent civilians by 5 pm and no amount of complaining from peacenik Scots will make any difference.

      But as for abstaining... no sorry. That's not the way to deal with the Tories. That's saying we don;t care either way. I'm afraid to say like labour over cuts in social security; tax credits and the like.

      Benn is, of course, entitled to his views and should be respected for making them so clear, but to my way of thinking there is no place for him in a Labour party front bench.

      He should leave.

      I agree with A J P Taylor. This is about money. It always is. But Cameron has already said that it is also about Britain's place in the world; it's status as a leading nation.

      Imagine being led by an Eton boy like him who hadn't the decency to come out and say sorry for his disgusting slur on the Labour leader and his followers....and by implication, the SNP, Plaid and others.

      He took it back by what he said, but he didn't have the decency to say...look, I'm sorry. It was said in the heat of the moment.

      Another great British value bites the dust.


    1. Very good, and very true Illy.

      Unknown (above) should watch the small part that you indicated.

      I'll watch the whole thing later... it looks as if it will be amusing.

  7. To me Tris, three things emerge from yesterdays football match at Westminster.

    1) It was carried out by a bunch of Empire Loyalists in a frenzy of nostalgia and bloodlust. The so called, "Mother of Parliaments" (in reality the Icelandic one), is a bloody disgrace.

    2) Hiliary Benn inserted the stiletto into Jeremy's ribs from beside him on the the Opposition Front Bench and wrote his application to take over Labour sooner than later. J C will be sickened as 66 of his Labour MPs will work day and night to reassert Bl;airtime policies.

    3) Scotland's national desire not to go to War was swept aside by a tide of Unionist bloodlust. It does bring Independence and that second Referendum tantalisingly closer. Without wishing there to be a "collateral" carnage of innocents, bombs are no so smart as to detect political persuasion before detonation, there will be carnage. It is inevitable. So will the BBC, ITV, Sky, and inky fingered Press report this or will it be left to the Internet?
    If it is the Internet I a sure we can expect a crack down on the Internet by the likes this Westminster lot running around with their blood up and blinding their vision.

    Get out asap, it is our only chance.

  8. before I forget the Middle East makes the Balkans look a positive oasis of Peace.\
    Remember what happened in 1914.

  9. The MPs from NI, those who attend and vote, voted with Cameron as did 66 Labour MPs. 66 is about a quarter of Corbyn's troops.

    Putsch is a coming.

  10. My tail is up; not a pretty sight.

    "they created a Desert and called it Peace."

    Calgacus a Caledonian Chief after the battle of Mons Grapius in N Scotland.

    1. I can;t disagree with any of that Panda... (I'm not commenting on the pretty sight!)

      Thanks for the information on NI. You'd have thought they might be a little sick of killings.

      What on EARTH are the Liberal Democrats about?

      We must watch Twitter carefully and see what is happening. I can;t see the BBC being critical while they wait to find out what's happening to their charter, and of course many of the other channels will love this war.

      It is down to the people to report on it.

      But I'm sure that the government will try to introduce legislation to curb social media. I suspect they have long wanted to. Might War give them an excuse?

    2. Labour:

      Adrian Bailey (West Bromwich West)

      Alan Campbell (Tynemouth)

      Alan Johnson (Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle)

      Alison McGovern (Wirral South)

      Angela Eagle (Wallasey)

      Angela Smith (Penistone and Stocksbridge)

      Ann Coffey (Stockport)

      Anna Turley (Redcar)

      Ben Bradshaw (Exeter)

      Bridget Phillipson (Houghton and Sunderland South)

      Caroline Flint (Don Valley)

      Chris Bryant (Rhondda)

      Chris Leslie (Nottingham East)

      Chuka Umunna (Streatham)

      Colleen Fletcher (Coventry North East)

      Conor McGinn (St Helens North)

      Dan Jarvis (Barnsley Central)

      Emma Reynolds (Wolverhampton North East)

      Frank Field (Birkenhead)

      Gareth Thomas (Harrow West)

      Geoffrey Robinson (Coventry North West)

      George Howarth (Knowsley)

      Gisela Stuart (Birmingham, Edgbaston)

      Gloria De Piero (Ashfield)

      Graham Jones (Hyndburn)

      Harriet Harman (Camberwell and Peckham)

      Heidi Alexander (Lewisham East)

      Helen Jones (Warrington North)

      Hilary Benn (Leeds Central)

      Holly Lynch (Halifax)

      Ian Austin (Dudley North)

      Jamie Reed (Copeland)

      Jenny Chapman (Darlington)

      Jim Dowd (Lewisham West and Penge)

      Jim Fitzpatrick (Poplar and Limehouse)

      Joan Ryan (Enfield North)

      John Spellar (Warley)

      John Woodcock (Barrow and Furness)

      Keith Vaz (Leicester East)

      Kevan Jones (North Durham)

      Kevin Barron (Rother Valley)

      Liz Kendall (Leicester West)

      Louise Ellman (Liverpool, Riverside)

      Luciana Berger (Liverpool, Wavertree)

      Lucy Powell (Manchester Central)

      Margaret Beckett (Derby South)

      Margaret Hodge (Barking)

      Maria Eagle (Garston and Halewood)

      Mary Creagh (Wakefield)

      Michael Dugher (Barnsley East)

      Neil Coyle (Bermondsey and Old Southwark)

      Pat McFadden (Wolverhampton South East)

      Peter Kyle (Hove)

      Phil Wilson (Sedgefield)

      Ruth Smeeth (Stoke-on-Trent North)

      Simon Danczuk (Rochdale)

      Siobhain McDonagh (Mitcham and Morden)

      Stella Creasy (Walthamstow)

      Stephen Doughty (Cardiff South and Penarth)

      Susan Elan Jones (Clwyd South)

      Tom Blenkinsop (Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland)

      Tom Watson (West Bromwich East)

      Tristram Hunt (Stoke-on-Trent Central)

      Vernon Coaker (Gedling)

      Wayne David (Caerphilly)

      Yvette Cooper (Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford)

  11. Scotland only gets a say in things when England's MPs are confident they can outvote us.
    This is England's war not ours.

    1. Well, 57 - 2 does suggest that Scotland is not behind the war.

  12. Is Conan 'Back'?

    1. I think he's been stirred into action by the incredible stupidity of Westminster.

    2. Hi Anon. Who you?

      Maybes aye maybes naw...

  13. Northern Irish MPs voted in favour of bombing owing to the Unionist majority. On many issues Unionists can reliably be depended upon always to back the most right-wing view represented in the House of Commons.

    1. Of course that is Mr Robinson's lot isn't it?

      I wonder how mrs Robinson is these days after her nervous breakdown...

  14. Tris

    I just hope that Labour members go de-selection mad now and if they don't then that party deserves to be consigned to the history books as a good idea corrupted by greed and infiltrated by Tories, maybe that was the Tory plan all along. They all went to the same schools, lets get some infiltraters in the Labour Party and they will destroy within and we destroy outwith. Labour disgust me and I also suspect that the Liberal Democrats just signed their own death warrant, certainly in Scotland. I saw Carmichael and just thought what a stain this man is to the Liberal movement but there are sadly enugh Cleggs on Liberal Voice supporting this folly, just shows you how much the Tories have infiltrated all the unionist parties. I'll give the Lib Dems a bit longer to see if I can get anyone to start thinking but I suspect my days are numbered in medium term, I just don't want any of this done in my name. Wonder how NO voters are feeling, too many probably don't care or even know there was a debate.


    1. I see that 2 of the Liberals voted with the majority of Labour, the SNP and Plaid.

      I understand that Scottish Labour's view is that there should be no further involvement. Certainly Union Jacket voted against action, and I understand that was after discussions with Kezia.

      I imagine Ruth's party would be for. There were in the end very few Tory rebels in England and of course Fluffy Muddle was up there voting for blood.

      Neil Findlay is against action, but blames the SNP for being unified in their disapproval of it... Strange man.

      I'd be interested to know what the ordinary Labour MSPs feel. You can always guess that people like Baillie will take the hard right opinion. I'm not sure why she's not in the Tories, but I wonder about how lesser known ones feel.

      And how about Rennie?

      I feel for you over your situation. I can;t help thinking that Farron was a disastrous choice as leader. He seems to be a Tory.

      I dunno how no voters are feeling. All the things that we were promise just falling away one after the other. Jobs that were only safe in the union gone within a year. Now a war that we didn't want and soon the Human Rights Act to be replace by British Rights (ie Rights for those who went to Eton adn sod the rest of you).

    2. Just seen this Tweet:

      Doug Daniel ‏@DouglasDaniel 4h4 hours ago

      According to @STVColin, Willie Rennie is the only Lib Dem MSP in favour of the bombing, and his colleagues aren't very happy...

  15. On the subject of Human Rights, interesting piece on Peat Worrier, seems it is not devolved but not in the hands of Westminster entirely either. Gove is bit unsure how it stands.

    1. Yes, I read that.

      We really can't le them take our human rights away.

      Gove... unsure... well, there's a thing!

      I see he's had to ear up his predecessor's idiotic charges in the English courts because magistrates were resigning.

    2. TEAR up... why oh why don;t I check before I send.

  16. I listened to a few more of the speeches. To be fair, Benn's speech was powerful, as was Salmond's (although a wee bit spoiled by the twitter comments - politicians should be banned from that. In fact ban Twitter, deny Katie Hopkins an income).

    Cameron's blank refusal to apologise about the "terrorist sympathisers" comments are a fucking disgrace frankly. Thatcher would not have used such a phrase, but then for all her faults she understood how a PM should argue their case.

    Labour is a disaster. And intimidation of MPs is unforgiveable. No matter what your poltical views, we live in a democracy and no one should be subject to such abuse. Cameron appears to have achieved his prime objective anyway - splitting the Labour party.

    But now we are participating in air strikes, a few things should be considered:

    Targets are kept to ones which strike at the support network for ISIS (or whatever you want to call them). No bombing in cities. Holding off an attack if you are unsure will not likely cause any problems strategically.

    Work with Assad ffs. Lesser of two evils - look at the lessons of Iraq and Libya.

    People need to support the aircrews. No cries of "warmonger" etc. People volunteer for the Armed Forces with the knowledge some numpty of a PM will send you somewhere you don't agree with.

    Diplomacy still needs to be pursued. Yes, dealing with this lot is rather difficult, but at least bloody try.

    I'll restate that I do not agree with Cameron's actions. I do believe we still need to take decisive and if necessary violent action against ISIS. But his approach smacks of political opportunism. He wants his own Falklands, but that was a relatively straightforward operation with a clearly defined purpose and more importantly, a plan in place for when the fighting ceased.

    Cameron is jumping in to be with the big boys. The 70,000 moderates is ethereal at best. The numbers are correct but some of them are anything but moderate, and they are fighting both ISIS and the Syrian Army. Many of them hate the West anyway. They are not going to jump behind some Tory twat who would likely blow his own head off if given a firearm.


    1. I've heard that Benn's speech was powerful, although according to some commentators, it was jam packed full of fatuous nonsense. The fact that he argued the opposite a few weeks ago doesn't help his sincerity score.

      It looks to me like he wants to be leader. The fact that he was praised to the rafters by Hammond was a kick in the teeth to his leader.

      Tories using the whole thing to embarrass Labour. Labour using the whole thing to embarrass Corbyn... but these will be Syrian lives they are playing with...and then almost undoubtedly some Brits will die as a result.

      Cheering and clapping will already be being used to recruit people.

      Why are we part of this stupid union that thinks only about the importance of punching above its weight??

    2. The cheering and clapping was bad. This is a deadly serious subject that should be conducted in a sombre mood.

      And a bit off/topic - I see Stan Collymore has joined the SNP. Just what they bloody well need. The jokes are already out there.......


    3. Aye... wholly strange for an Englishman who seems to live in England...Why not join the Greens?

    4. The jokes aren't about being English......

      Two types of jokes, one with reference to canine activities,
      The other not funny and referring to women beating.