Now I'm going to be honest. I couldn't bear to watch the debate. I am sick at the moment, having picked up a stomach bug, and nausea is pretty much constant. So I just couldn't risk having to watch the vomit-inducing performances, of the troughers in London's House of Commons today.
I did, however, follow some of the debate on Twitter, where fortunately far better informed and more intelligent people were passing on their comments (on both sides of the debate).
So here are some...
Tory MP asking that it become impossible for any part of the
UK to become independent without a 2/3 majority. Democracy, Westminster-style:
Doug Daniel.
Scotland votes to remain part of Britain and then finds that
six of their MPs are worth less than one of Farage's: Dara Ó Briain.
If there's one thing that 'debate' confirmed. For Scotland
to have a voice at WM @theSNP needs to
win a significant chunk of seats at #GE15: Graeme Thomson.
Surprised Sarwar knew where his work is . Is this a debate
or a hate fest against the SNP: Bruce Hosie.
"Business as usual cannot continue" says the man
who assumed his father's parliamentary seat: Doug Daniel.
Ian Davidson beneficently announces to a startled chamber
that he has outsourced responsibility "for bayoneting the wounded" to
ATOS: Peat Worrier.
Ming Campbell describes it as "politically
unhelpful" if the devolution timetable isn't stuck to. Not about Scotland,
it's about his party: Doug Daniel.
Ming Campbell says that SNP would regard failure to meet
devo timetable a considerable advantage". No, as a breach of trust: Peter
Curran.
If Westminster does not fulfil its Vow to Scotland it will
light a fuse which will ultimately deliver Scottish independence: Tom London.
Watch the debate and see arrogance of Labour front bench to
Scottish MPs as they talk about London and English votes in Scottish debate!!:
Pete Wishart.
Post-Scotland vote, a grand convention on devolution is
needed - politicians keep out.. http://bit.ly/1wy4YSS ”: Dan Snow.
Hague changes his view on the #vow in same speech .. he
tells me its unconditional!! ..Then a pile of unhappy English MPs stand to
intervene: Angus MacNeil.
Here's a novel idea, why not give Scotland Independence.
Then WM won't bitch about Scots MP's voting on matter Scots tax payers pay for:
Marty Mc.
Gordon Brown on tax, ignoring fact that he was the man who
promised effectively devomax and federalism. Deeply confused...: Peter Curran.
William Hague sits down without mentioning a single new
power for Scotland: Liam Furby.
Gordon Brown has described Scotland as a
"minority" in a debate on devolution to Scotland. You know where he
stands: Paul Monaghan.
There you have it, from a conservative MPs mouth- parliament
did not make the vow and are not bound by it:
Patrick J Pollock.
Where is Miliband and Darling at the debate @scottishlabour you lot are a
disgrace the sooner you are gone the better: Bruce Hosie (I’d add that, as far
as I know, the Prime Minister didn’t turn up either!!)
Hague moved on from Scotland after 14 minutes in his speech.
Lab front bencher Sadiq Khan doesn't bother with Scotland at all: Pete Wishart.
Brian Donohoe remaining classy there by referring to the
"Scottish Exec". Just can't bring himself to call it the Scottish
Government: Doug Daniel.
Peter Wishart bringing up a good point about EVEL-touting
English Tory MPs being very happy to wade in on Scottish Questions at
Westminster: Doug Daniel.
MORE BREAKING NEWS: NICK CLEGG TOO BUSY GETTING PM'S TEA TO
ATTEND SCOTTISH POWERS DEBATE: Ross
For the past 2 years the debate on Scotland's future was
exciting & full of possibility. The exact opposite of today's debate in
Westminster: Ian Robertson.
Labour to boycott Conservative body set up to review English
MPs role in Parliament post: STV (Didn’t they criticise the SNP for boycotting Calman?)
Gordon Brown did his six minutes then raced out of the
chamber like a cat with its arse on fire. That's what "everything in my
power" means: Rev S Campbell.
84% voted in #indyref. Less than 10%
of Westminster discusses devolution. You still think we're Better Together?
Shug Osborne.
Seems it’s "Speaker's Discretion" to put time
limit on SNP (Governing Party of Scotland) contribution to debate but not Lab
backbench Brown: Angus MacNeil.
Feeling miserable. How could anyone have believed #thevow -
"promises" of powers WM threw in at the last minute: Beth.
Question really is did Gordon Brown know what he was signing
up to when he signed the #vow?
Or was he duped? Angus MacNeil.
If the #Vow
swayed 6% of voters in Scotland it served its short term political purpose -
but now it’s their constitutional hangover: Angus MacNeil.
According to Lord Ashcroft’s poll it swayed 25% NO Voters
(13.75% of all votes) Under 1/2 of them needed to change outcome! Paul.
This debate has absolutely nothing to do with Scotland. It
is a debate about English Votes for English Laws: Pete Wishart.
Even Reporting Scotland is going to have a job patching
enough of this together to make it look like it was about Scottish devolution:
Wings.
Incidentally the first Tory MP to intervene was disgraced Scots-born Liam Werrity or Fox or something , who
called for English votes for English issues.
Then Labour MP John Denham announced that if “Scotland will
get what Scotland wants and so England must get what England wants”. Seemingly unconcerned about what Ulster or Wales might want.
But in fairness Lib Dem MP Menzies Campbell said: “Change in
Scotland should not be held up to allow England to catch up.” He might have added, after all we have been working for change these past 50 years, while the English refused any kind of regional parliament except in London, which as we all know is a country apart.
Broon was misled?
ReplyDeleteBolx! The future Lord Broon knew exactly what he was doing!
hard to see that someone like Brown (mad as a hatter though he may be) could be hauled in so effectively by such an idiot as Cameron.
DeleteI wonder if he just wanted to stick his fingers up at Alistair Darling, who didn't bother attending the debate, probably far too busy giving a speech for £20,000 somewhere.
Imagine being able to say that HE (Brown) won the debate, after Darling working on it for 2 years solid, with a constant movement towards YES... and then Brown, the saviour of the world pops up and does his magic trick again.
He probably was attracted by that. He seems to be that kind of man.
I imagine that you could get him to do absolutely anything if you promised him that Tony Blair would end up penniless and destitute!
I don't want to be thought of as a conspiracy nut, but I've had this discussion with 'sensible' folk that hold positions in politics.
DeleteWestminster allows people to gain power, as long as they have a 'kink' that can be used against them,
For years, being gay was a crime, so gay folk were allowed to gain positions of power, as they were easily blackmailed.
The Saville horror shows that there are folk in power that are easily persuadable.
I'm not saying that Broon only got married at the age of 55 so he could be a respectable PM, or that he has dark secrets that could be used against him.
Maybe he believes the shite he spouts?
Good point.
DeleteThe system with whips only works if there are secrets that MPs will do anything to hide. At the same time, to be fair, some people go into parliament only to rise to the top, and will do that at any cost.
Maybe ALL of them don't have some hidden secret, but I'm sure many of them do.
Darling wasn't the only one to have a beard.
DeleteBlair made Darling shave his off and Brown marry his.
LOL...
DeleteWhat a way you have with words, Conan...
:)
Probably all true though...
Tris
ReplyDeleteSadly I watched some of it this afternoon and as usual it became about England with the same old rubbish getting spouted.
Scottish Unionists just waffled and suprisngly the only one who said anything was Campbell but he had to get a few shots at the SNP, as they all did all afternoon. It was really poor, Clegg, Miliband and Cameron never bothered to show up, as did most MPs and Alistair Tory Darling. They have no plans to honour the ' Vow ' in my opinion and if they don't I really feel that any additional repsonsibilities must be put to a vote of the people with a devo max option, of course that won't happen but always good to wind up the no voters lol.
The debate just really hits home how broken our political system is, it is full of careerists and yes men and women. I am suprised that anything gets done at all, must be down to the civil servants because this bunch couldn't organise a piss up in a brewery. I think that this will all fall around their ears anyway and the YES parties have to be ready, I really believe this country is looking at a major fall. They are re-hearsing the next banking crisis with the Americans, that is not an if but a when. Our borrowing is out of control, debt is rising all over the place and while most of Europe, surprisngly those in the Euro, have a degree of safety, we don't, and we are going to pay for it. I do think that in the next few years we will be doing it all again once this whole facade starts to tumble down.
Cameron was right, Britain is broken, they have no idea how to fix it and it is going to get a hell of a lot worse before it gets better. The nay sayers who bought into the lies are really going to regret it and be thankful for the YES Alliance and it's staying power. The Britnats don't give a shit because they are already ok but I suspect things might just change for them as well, esp if the racist tories take Scotland out of Europe against it's will and the jobs start to go and the buisinesses that the Britnats own discover that Europeans don't need to buy their goods and can't anyway because Britain has closed it's doors. TTIP won't save them and will probably help it all go to shit anyway.
Sorry for being cynical as always but the YES vote so important and we are now going to have to suffer because of the continued lies and ignorance. Those of us who care are going to have to stick around to pick up the pieces I'm afraid, there is a storm coming.
Bruce
LOL I think, Bruce, we are all a bit cynical by now.
DeleteCameron and his bunch of robber barons, thought that they could fix Britain by taking it back to 1885. They must figure that everyone was happy then because they knew their place, even if it was up a chimney, at 7 or down a mine at 12.
They are doing their best to recreate that.
They also base their self confidence on the historical attitude of the Brits: servile and respectful of people in a higher class than themselves.
I'm not sure any of them is actually aware of the fact that the internet, and travel and education means that we aren't quite like that anymore.
I look forward to wiping that smug look off his posh coupon.
It's catching isn't it.
DeleteFraid so...
Delete"if they don't I really feel that any additional repsonsibilities must be put to a vote of the people with a devo max option"
DeleteBruce, if the SNP and other pro-independence parties have a majority after 2016, I see no reason why they shouldn't hold a consultative referendum on Devo Max (especially if it becomes clear to voters that the Vow has been broken).
It would seem the obvious route, I suspect, James.
DeleteWe assume that it was the solemn vow did the trick, based on the polls immediately preceding the vote, and, of course, the Ashcroft poll on the 19th, showing that more than 20% of No voters voted that way because of the federalism promise. I see no harm in confirming it through a referendum if, as I suspect, we get very little except some fiddling with taxes (which will make us worse off).
The trouble is that devo max and federalism are nebulous terms... It would be difficult to define what we meant unless we went the whole hog and said that we saw it as everything excluding foreign affairs and defence.
But in the end we wouldn't be able to force Westminster to do anything about it, no matter what the result.
It seems to me that in the days after the referendum, we were getting a lot of hard talk from people like Carmichael, saying that Westminister must now deliver. But that seems to have died a death now.
The 'debate' should be shown in its entirety to all No voters as it was nothing but EVEL.
ReplyDeleteScotland has been stitched up by the Labour party and its mouthpiece the BBC and we must not let them ever forget that for one second.
I know NO voters are reprehensible, but I seriously don't think I could ask them to ask then to sit through that.
DeleteI mean there are limits. It is wrist splitting stuff, I believe.
They are the ones who have brought us to this so suffer, as we all will, they have to account for their actions. 'Never ever trust a unionist politician' should be on all future ballot papers in Scotland.
DeleteI'll second that.
DeleteCH
DeleteYep it wuz the BBC that won it for the Union...............???you should get treatment for your condition
BBC played its part. In between hiding nonces and spending vast amounts of the licence fee on first class fares and 6 star hotels for executives, not to mention outrageous fees for a pile of talentless hasbeen "stars", it lied through its teeth.
DeleteBut we all know that it was a solemn vow which it looks like they have ditched in favour of what the HoC wants to talk about which is English votes for English Laws, or Evel for short.
Labour of course will never agree to that because they would be excluded from government in England for quite some time, and therefore you would have a prime minister who wasn't really prime minister of the bit that counts.
Pathetic.
Grow up Nico, your hero's lied to the peoples of Scotland; may they rot in the hell, they have created for us.
DeleteNiko doesn't do grown up on the subject of independence, Jim.
DeleteIs anyone interested in making a submission to the Smith Commission which is the outfit that will decide how much or little in additional powers are devolved to Scotland?
ReplyDeleteIf you are interested may I suggest you consider making a submission on the subject of health inequalities. Scientific research, as i expect many readers will know, points to inequalities in power, wealth and income as fundamental drivers of health inequalities and the reason for early mortality in Scotland. To address the problem which requires wealth and power redistribution on a huge scale requires that Scottish government has effective economic and welfare policies and access to oil revenues.
Neither Labour nor Conservatives have a policy on health inequalities.
Incidentally, the Claim of Right made by the Constitutional Convention recognised the sovereignty of the Scottish people. We can reject policies we don't like if there are enough of us. Arguably, we can reject policies that are inadequate to our needs. Can we also, using the Claim of Right reject the participation of Westminster politicians in the Smith Commission?
sam
Thanks Sam. It's a worthwhile point.
DeleteThe sovereignty of the Scottish people is, it seems to me, often disregarded by Westminster on the basis that there is no such right for English/Welsh or, I expect, Ulstermen.
It's an inconvenience to them that the people are sovereign and the monarch and all her government are there by the grace of the Scottish nation, not god.
We already have and my Husbands was a beaut, as he said he is pretty sure they will discard it as soon as they have read it but at least they will know that there are people out there who are well aware as to what they are up to.
DeleteHave to say it I was a member of Scottish Labour, I would be a bit sheepish today because bought and sold off by the Tories, and with the perfect example of what happens when you get into bed with them as per the Lib Dem, straight in front of their eyes. They better hope nothing worse than the Vow being ignored happens in Scotland because they may find that their constituents are not in a forgiving mood and whoops no Ministerial post if the English Votes for English Laws goes ahead. Neutered, lovely or should I say shame, but then they do not have any.
Team Gym European Championships from Iceland webcam. starts tomorrow 15th for 3 days.
ReplyDeleteLove that website.
DeleteFantastic.
Wish I'd been born Icelandic.
Forces of Evel trample over The Solemn Vow to Scots
ReplyDeleteRather more left when Michael Moore, the Lib Dem former secretary of state for Scotland, rose to speak – partly because he’s rather dull, but mainly because he insisted on bringing the debate back to Scotland. This wasn’t what anyone had come for and the remaining MPs chatted amongst themselves. Then came Gordon Brown. Having saved the world (™Gordon Brown) and saved the union (™Gordon Brown) the former prime minister was making a rare appearance in the Commons to save the Labour party.
He might just have done so. Having twitched and yawned his way through the opening speeches, he rose to make an intelligent and passionate argument against the Forces of Evel. David Cameron’s opportunism was designed to crush minorities and would tear apart the union he claimed he wanted to preserve. “Nations can collapse by accident,” he observed, before segueing into an extract from St Mark’s gospel. The Forces of Evel could not compete with the Word of God.
Ha ha... I was just coming on to post a link to that article which was quite good, I thought.
DeleteFor the MSM yes, pity it only happens now and again.
DeleteBrown beginning to understand what being North British actually means. Hahaha.
DeleteI wonder if he thinks his baronetcy is hanging by a thread?
Nah, he's guaranteed that by right. Even if Heath, Major and Blair have so far turned it down.
DeleteUntil Wilson they used to be given an Earldom so that their kids could inherit it.
For heaven's sake...earldoms being handed out in the 21st century???
The pro-independence parties should now just get on with the job of ensuring a majority of MP's seats in Scotland are won by their candidates in 2015 and a majority of MSP's seats at Holyrood are won by their candidates in 2016, thereby removing Westminster's mandate to rule Scotland, then declare UDI during the Summer of 2015.
ReplyDeleteI'd really prefer another referendum. UDI brings too many problems.
DeleteTris, I agree that another referendum is the best answer, but I suspect that we will only get that if the possibility of a UDI is there in the background, especially when the likely outcome of a referendum is independence.
DeleteWe only got Westminster's approval for the last referendum because they were confident the result would be No.
Yes, I accept that they will be reluctant to give us another referendum.
DeleteI just worry that UDI is a situation where no one would know where they were.
International companies would be between a rock and a hard place... pay tax to Scotland or London? Who would pay pensions and benefits? We'd be outside of EU. The UN? Would anyone trade with us? Would violence break out?
Could the Scottish government really prove that that was the will of the people, based on an election of pro independence parties alone. What about the fact that the unionist parties truly are incapable of running the country... I mean seriously Lamont? Davidson? Rennie?
And what kind of numbers would need to vote?
I can see Darling's dystopian image before my eyes.
ALot of No Shows
ReplyDeletedaily record will have to photoshop
I'm sure they will manage that.
DeleteOdd that Miliband and Cameron weren't there when they were talking about the constitution of the UK.
And I'm assuming Darling couldn't stand to be in the same room as Brown.
Not that he's a regular attender either, so they probably don't usually have to worry about that.
Unfortunately, as we are still sadly part of the Westminster electoral system, we are paying for these sad bastards to not go to work very often. It is also unfortunate that we are also paying for the sad bastards who do,
ReplyDeleteIt's time we got rid of Unionist MPs from Scotland; the Labour party snouters, the Lib Dem Tory party echoes and the wee Tory hiding in the Borders somewhere.
Devo-Max was never going anywhere, and we sound like No voters if we give it any credence at all. Independence is what we want, not wee crumbs from our master's table.
Well like Humerous Vegetable I never thought there was a hope in hell of any more powers coming our way and those that might will be so bad to be entirely useless. I do not want Devo Max, never have, why leave important stuff like Defence and Foreign Affairs with your next door neighbour. It is like you get to decide where you buy the milk but they decide what car you buy and where you go for your mortgage and holidays and you can only be friends with them, everyone else is an enemy.
ReplyDeleteWhatever anyone thinks (and you;re probably both quite right), we have to give them the time to come up with what they think Devo Max, or "near federalism" looks like.
DeleteWhen, as I'm sure they will, they fail to come up with anything like what we were promised, then we need to see if the Scottish people are going to accept that or not.
In the meantime, to ensure that they are very focussed on the job of coming up with some constructive policies, I think we should vote in as many pro Scotland candidates at the London elections.
People like Alexander and Curran will never fight for Scotland. They fight for themselves and their hopeful positions of "import" in the British cabinet, and finally a seat in the House of the Living Dead.
Benefit of the doubt to Political Titan Brian Donohoe. Maybe he hadn't heard the Scottish Executive has been the Scottish Government for a few years. He's far too busy contemplating the major political questions facing the world. He strides across a world stage, like Gandhi or Mandela.
ReplyDeleteOr maybe he was just busy with important things like expenses and what have you. I know that they can take up some time...
Delete