The last debate was a pretty 'touch and go' thing in my opinion. I see no problem in admitting that. Darling, for some unknown reason, possibly the weeks of training, was far better than anyone had expected him to be, and, frankly, Alex Salmond, also for some unknown reason, wasn't nearly as good as we expected him to be.
The Press had already built up our expectations of Darling being slaughtered, and when he wasn't they portrayed it as huge victory for Flipper, although actually, among undecideds there was a small (perhaps statistically insignificant) move to YES.
Still that didn't get in the way of a good news story for the unionists. The press, STV (who were accused of "fixing" the audience), and the BBC, who trumpet Better Together, No Thanks, Nob Orders, U Kok, BritNat propaganda at every turn, just loved it...not thinking for a second about the debate to come.
It was, though, the kind of thing that wasn't ever going to happen twice. Darling couldn't be expected to keep the relatively high level of performance and Alex was bound to be back on form.
And so it was.
With polls at the end of the debate showing in the range of 70:30 to Salmond, it's hard to see how Darling or Labour or the Tories or whatever it is we are up against could possibly call it a victory.
But of course you can always depend on Miliband to say something stupid and invite a knocking down. But what more humiliating knock down could you possibly get as a Labour leader, than from the great great grandson of the founder of the party that Ed Miliband supposedly leads? Just to rub salt into the wound Ross Hardie's Twitter picture includes a Yes emblem.
Seriously I'm ashamed to say that I was an Ed Miliband supporter in the race for the leadership. Red Ed, I thought, might bring some sense back to a Labour party that had become so purple it was almost blue. How wrong was I?
What the debate showed was that their man had no answers. The best they could offer was "more of the same, only not quite so good because there is all that debt to pay off so austerity in the union, whichever way you vote".
Darling wasn't only bettered by Alex Salmond. He was bettered by the audience. Of course there was that magic woman who put Darling right in his place over Health, hoping that next time he got a fat cheque for speaking to healthcare companies he could feel Bevan sitting on his shoulder, followed the man who asked "If we are 'better together' with the UK, why aren't we 'better together' now?
And of course that encapsulates what we feel.
Isn't that the question everyone should be asking?
What a bloody joke.
So, instead what they want us to do is to pour our money into the stinking pit of corruption, manipulation and deviance that is Westminster and get back less and less every year to run the things that we are allowed to run in this "best of both worlds" crap that they tell us we have.
That is their idea of BETTER together. It is easily seen that their main proponents don't live and work in Scotland, and have access to massive salaries, expenses and speaking fees of tens of thousands of pounds a day.
Well, it's not my idea of Better.
Anyway, for something that needed no comment, it got a lot of my hot air...
So, I'll stop there.
Just take this thought with you today: Keir Hardie would have been embarrassed by Labour and by Miliband. God knows what he'd think of Lamont, Baillie and Stairheid.
Harks back to the great Jimmy Reid- "I never left the Labour Party, the Labour Party left me".
ReplyDeleteDefinitely on a high today after last night. The audience were the real stars, and the First Minister gave it heart and soul as always.
Yes, I think we are all uplifted by the event Alex.
DeleteAnd no one with eyes to see can possibly imagine that the Labour Party is nothing like the party it started out as. Of course things have changed and of course Labour had to change with things, but it has certainly left behind its core audience in pursuit of power and position; its members gladly take seats in the house of lords, not so they can work there to defeat the Tories, but so they can swank around with stupid turtles pretending to be aristos.
They no longer understand or connect with the working classes they were set up to represent. So far have they moved they don't speak the same language.
People like Daling who was at the kind of school where they have "fags" may have been a lefty in his youth, but he's now an upper class Edinburgh Tory millionaire with 7 houses and an after dinner talking career that brings in tens of thousands a night. He is bound to become an aristocrat in the near future.
What the hell is Labour about that? keir Hardie wanted to abolish the HoL.
I can understand that they had to put some people in as working peers otherwise there would have been no one to speak for labour in the HoL, but these ex politicians don;t go there to work; they take the title to make themselves look big.
Traitors to the party and the constituency.
I don't mind Tories doing that. it what Tories believe; it is what they are about. I detest it but they have as much right to their opinions as I do. What I can't abide is these wolves in sheep clothing turncoats. Reid McConnell, Martin, and all the rest of them.
They make me want to vomit.
You know, I'm not convinced that Labour taking seats in the HoL was a good stratigic move. It opened them up to becoming part of the system that they (at that time) opposed down the road.
DeleteIf they'd kept to their principles, we might never have seen the New Labour/Red Tory phenomenon that Thatcher claimed as her greatest achievement.
What I found most interesting about that debate was how the audience brought up some *massively* important points, and them AD and the moderator just brushed by them as though they were nothing.
The Post Office was one that stuck in my memory.
Maybe Alistair was expecting a friendly audience as he had last time. Maybe the BBC was bit more careful given the stink last time.
DeleteBTNT have no answers to these matters Illy. Simple. They support nuclear weapons rather than feeding children; they prefer having clout over having a decent health service; they think we have a something for nothing culture.
They are as dismissive of ordinary people as Mrs Thatcher was, just as long as they do not go without.
I always said SLAB would have Keir Hardie birling' in his grave, nice to see his great great grandson agrees. Basterts
ReplyDeleteMe too. I was tickled pink when I saw that on my Twitter feed. :)
DeleteBrilliant article Tris.
ReplyDeleteWho would have thought the relative of the founder of the Labour party would be a YESSER. Copied the pics of the tweet and away to annoy the few No'ers out there. Labour have lost the support of Scotland.
I am on a wee high after yesterdays debate. I knew Alex would come out this time guns blazing but the debate blew me away. I could hear my neigbours cheering through the walls as Darling floundered and , Yes i have to admit i felt a tad pity for AD. He was monstered-big time.
Feel the air Tris. Independence is coming and there is no stopping it now.
Now where's those No buggers.......
Thanks Richie.
DeleteI felt no pity for him. He deserved all he got the slimy Tory toad.
He was an idiot when he was young, predicting pillage and rape ...quite literally.. if we even got a wee assembly in Edinburgh. Even allowing for the fact that he was 18, he sounded slightly unhinged. Either that on on the wacky backy
He was a useless cabinet minister. He was a catastrophic chancellor and he cheated on his expenses and got us to pay for accountants to show him how to minimise his taxes, whilst being chancellor. At one point he was claiming for tow houses and living in Downing Street.
He's a part time MP_ making a fortune out of after dinner speeches to big banks and private. medical companies.
He has lied his way through this campaign. He puts his own country down every time. He will not admit that we are as capable of running our own affairs as Denmark of Norway.
He makes me sick.
Yes. I feel the air Richie. It's coming.
I would imagine that, Keir Hardie would ask; "Who let these Tory bastards in!"
ReplyDeleteJimnArlene
Yes. He certainly wouldn't recognise them as Labour... not their policies.
DeletePeople like Daling who was at the kind of school where they have "fags".
ReplyDeleteYou know Tris, Darling's manner and attitude last night was so very 'private school'. Step back from the content of the debate and analyse the dismissive hand gestures, the pointing, the 'he / him', the disdain to the FM and audience, the whole attitude in fact, played out as if a working class, cooncil educated plebe shouldn't be entitled to participate on the same stage as him.
Yes I agree anonymous, and to have a working-class wingman, even tho she was a teacher, tell him he's wrong wow ..... Love it 8-)
DeleteBugger that should be wumman
DeleteHe's always given me the impression of an Edinburgh Tory lawyer. A memeber of the smart set, the best golf club, the Morningside villa, shopping in Waitrose.
DeleteHe does appear to look down at ordinary people, and I'm sure he will soon be a lord.
He must have been nonplussed to be told he was a liar by an ordinary woman....oh yes. (or even a wingman!)
ReplyDeleteSalmond won the debate, but it will make little difference
Still, in these referendums, the side that favours the status quo doesn’t actually need to win the debate. It simply needs to show that voting for change will involve risks and uncertainties – which Darling just about managed to do.
Salmond’s win on points won’t have been enough to turn public opinion around. It now looks almost certain that Scotland will vote to remain in the United Kingdom – a decision which will, incidentally, lead to an upsurge in patriotism in the other three home nations.
I reckon Unionists secured their victory when the main parties made clear that they would devolve significant additional powers to Edinburgh in the event of a “No” vote. In every test of Scottish opinion, most voters favour this middle option
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/danielhannan/100284006/salmond-won-the-debate-but-it-will-make-little-difference/
Hmmm....à chacun son avis, anonymous.
DeleteThe Daily Telegraph is likely to be behind the likes of Darling. It's a Tory paper. He's to all intents and purposes, a Tory (although to Daniel he's a rabid socialist.)
Patriotism is, of course, as Dr Johnson said, the last vestige of the scoundrel, and suits the kind of governments we have had over the last 30+ years. Daniel believes implicitly in the superiority of English speaking peoples, a bit like Mrs Tahtcher only he's nearer being human.
So I'm sure that if there is a no vote, the people of England, and some of the welsh and a few of the Ulstermen will become happy to lay down their lives for the greater glory of David Cameron or Boris johnson, whichever one it is that is crawling up the US president's backside at the time.
Daniel Hamma huh....
What he knows about Scotland, I suspect, you could write on a postage stamp in large letters.
Tris
ReplyDeleteI surprised myself last night and watched the debate, I wasn't going to bother because I suspected that no matter what happened the press would spin it and that would be that.
However I did watch it and must admit I was surprised that Alex Salmond came across so well to be honest, he is in a tough position in that does he go for it or play the stateman. I thought he pulled off both, he took Darling apart and rightly so and I would also agree that the audience were, in the main, really good and with it being live the BBC had little chance to do their QT approach.
I thought Darling was found out, even though those of us interested in politics have known that for a long time he is vacuous, it was good that DKs got a chance to see him fall apart on the NHS, more powers etc. I wish Salmond had hammered him on being the only Labour Chancellor to get a standing ovation at a Tory Party Conference but I tweeted that anyway.
You could tell the BT lot in the audience with the frowns on their faces, but Darling and the whole BT argument was laid bare for all to see. I know the media are saying the polls will not be affected by last night but it is too soon to tell and I suspect that they will anyway over the next few weeks and assuming YES keep hammering away on the NHS etc the gap will close on the polls as they stand. However, I really do suspect that the polls are not telling the whole story, I just think that the turn out is going to be so huge that it is a lot closer than people think with myself leaning more towards a slim YES victory. I also accept though that I live in YES Dundee and everywhere you go now all you see is yes. If it does turn out to be a no we will be living in a very divided country and no matter what the politicians say nothing will be the same again and I suspect the drive for independence will become greater, I certainly hope so. There is no way this movement should be allowed to die no matter what the establishment say, but either way i am optimistic of it being a yes vote. The NO voters are worried, they are very very worried, we can all see that now.
As far as Labour are concerned my views are well known, I continue to loath them more than the Conservatives for the lies, the deceit, the corruption and the pain they have caused Scotland in the last 100 years. Whaever happen on the 18th I really hope that party is on the way to death in Scotland and become as toxic as the Tories and the Liberals. They certainly deserve it.
Bruce
I agree with you Bruce about the Labour party.
DeleteTories look after the rich and the privileged. It's what they are for. They really make no bones about it. They would happily get rid of health services and free education (and have and are). They will cut benefits, pensions and wages if they can, if it means their types can make a few extra bob.
So they are not despicable because that is what they are about. They don't really pretend much else. Unless you;re rich or titled or privileged you'd be nuts to vote for them, because they will kick you in the face.
But Labour aren't supposed to be like that, and they are becoming more and more like that. Darlings like that. Although I should be a Labour voter, they repulse me.
I don;t know how much it will do to the polls. A lot of people tweeting last night that they had been won over, or their family or a friend. But the polls are way out anyway compared to what everyone is reporting...
I think we will win. I really do, and Alex slaughtering the Flipper will be a fillip to our people out night after night on the doorsteps across the country.
We hate the Scottish Labour party and their supporters/voters cos they are lying cheating filth scum and traitors.
ReplyDeleteErr ! but we want them to vote yes so we can win....and then after Independence
we can get even with the stinking scum ha ha
As the old snp/nat saying goes
The only good Labour person is a dead one....
yep ! life is going to grand in a Independent Scotland ..well for those who are untainted with Labour connections
Ok Niko.
DeleteThe Scottish Labour Party, which doesn't exist, is run by the UK Labour Party which requires it to be a right of centre party to get votes form the important and populous part of the UK. The South East of England.
Say what you will, that is the way that it is. It was admitted by Pete Mandelson in his book, which I'm sure you'll have read. He agreed with Tony Blair and Gordon Brown that the only way to get into power post Thatcher was to appeal to the property owning, capitalists in London and its surrounds. Ensure that they knew that their money was safe with Labour, that it wouldn't be handed out to the poor and undeserving scumbags.
Read it if you haven't.
I despise the House of Lords; it's an insult to democracy, and the Labour party that I could follow swore to get rid of it. But they didn't. I can accept that to make the democracy something like function, Labour has to have working peers. It's a nonsense, and they should have written in to the legislation that on retiring form "working" in the lords, they would stand down and revert to MR or Ms or whatever... but they go on and on... and then people like Robertson and Reid, Liddle and McConnell take seats in the these are retirement gifts.
They are Tories who don't have the balls to admit they are Tories. They are traitors to the working classes.
The Tories are just by and large horrible people who don't pretend to be anything except selfish self centred and elitist.
People like McConnell and Reid pretend that they are decent people and are, in reality, every bit as repugnant as Michael Howard and Margaret Thatcher.. and more so for having tried to fool us into thinking they were human.
tris
ReplyDeleteIgnoring your usual normal trite nat homily.
Have read of this Im sure you will agree with much
that has been written.
http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/aug/26/the-establishment-uncovered-how-power-works-in-britain-elites-stranglehold
The establishment uncovered: how power works in Britain
In an exclusive extract from his new book, Owen Jones explains how the political, social and business elites have a stranglehold on the country
Thanks ... off to read it now. I follow Owen Jones on Twitter. I quite like his style.
DeleteExcellent article. The book will be a must read when it comes out.
DeleteLove the fact that despite being one of the least religious countries in the world, the Uk is the only country apart from Iran to have senior clerics sit as of right in its parliament.
What I was saying about Labour is mentioned in this article. We got more and more decent equal legislation with Labour Party influence, most importantly just after the war.
It is disappearing now thanks to a right wing agenda, even after a record 13 years of so called Labour government.
Where are the Bevins and Hardies?
Jim Murphy, Dougie Alexander...?
Has to be a spoof Ed Miliband site?
ReplyDeleteIf not, what is the colour of the sky on his planet?