Friday 23 August 2013

Better Together "+ve" message....Part One.

For some time I've asked people from the unionist side to explain why they think we are better together. 

Whilst browsing this morning, I found this on the Better Together site. I thought you might like the opportunity to read it and comment upon it.

They say:

We love Scotland. We are ambitious for Scotland's people and Scotland's possibilities. Our case is not that Scotland could not survive as a separate country - it is that there's a better choice for our future. 

I say:

I have no doubt that you love Scotland, but if you are ambitious for Scotland's people and their "possibilities" (whatever they are), why do you think it is better for us to be governed by a party that we did not vote for? 

Why too, do you think that the universally acknowledged "vanity" spending on Trident, widely believed to be the UK prime minister's ticket to play with the big boys in Washington and Beijing, is more important than spending money on the desperately poor state of Scotland, for example, the lowest life expectancy in the UK, highest rate of teenage pregnancy in the UK and in Europe? All this after 300+ years in the UK.

They say:

A strong Scottish Parliament within the United Kingdom gives us the best of both worlds: real decision making power here in Scotland, as well as a key role in a strong and secure UK. Now and in the future Scotland is stronger as part of the United Kingdom and the United Kingdom is stronger with Scotland as a partner.

I say:

Yes, it has made a huge difference to our lives that we have some very important decisions made in Edinburgh. Under both Labour and SNP governments we have moved forward in law and order, health and education. However there are many areas of immense importance to the people of Scotland which are decided by a government for which we didn't vote and passed by a parliament massively dominated by English MPs, interested in the wants and needs of their constituents. Wants and needs vastly different from those in Scotland. You say that now and in the future Scotland is "stronger" as part of the UK.  It's and handy soundbite to scare the pants off people, but what does it mean? Are you proud that we could, with the UK, blow Moscow off the face of the earth and kill millions of people? You say that the UK is stronger with Scotland as a partner. Why on Earth wouldn't Scotland still be a partner with the UK after independence?Surely the UK is forever bragging about its partnership with the USA, and yet the USA declared independence in 1776. 

They say:

In the UK the BBC and the Bank of England were founded by Scotsmen. The NHS was founded by a Welshman. The State Pension system was founded by an Englishman. Partners in these islands. Working together, better together.

I say:

Surely in the 21st century we don't have to belong to a country to "found" or use things. Facebook, Wikipedia, McDonald's, are as much part of our lives as pensions and the NHS. Of course the pension system is the worst in Europe, beaten even by Jersey and Guernsey, and in England the NHS is being taken to pieces  The BBC takes in far more from Scotland than it spends here, and the governor of the Bank of England once said that unemployment in the north was a price worth paying for helping the economy in the south, so even if it was started by a Scot, it is not now working for Scotland.

They say:


We are proud that we fought together to defeat fascism, and worked together to build a welfare state. But the case we make is about what's best for Scotland's future.

I say:

We fought fascism together with many other countries including the Soviet Union and the USA, Poland, France, Australia, New Zealand, Canada, Mexico, the British Raj, South Africa, The Netherlands, Ethiopia, Greece, Norway... and more...

The Welfare state that we worked together to create is being dismantled by the Conservative (and Liberal ) government in London, pretty much against the will of the people in Scotland  Even Labour and the SNP MPs voted together against some of the measures  going against the Willie Bain principle that whatever the SNP say, Labour votes against it, even if it is Labour policy.

They say:

Times are really tough at home and really turbulent internationally. In the future Scotland's prosperity will be strengthened by keeping the British connection. We need more growth, more jobs, and more prosperity in Scotland. We don't need uncertainty, instability, and barriers for our businesses.

I say:

Yes times are tough, and although different measures show different results (on the basis that statistics can be made to show what ever you want them to), the general view is that countries that have worked to spend their way out of recession/depression, have done much better than the British model which has reduced spending. In a country where three new soup kitchens or food banks open every week, it's hard to take seriously the notion that we would be better off together. Uncertainty hasn't caused us any problems so far. Barriers to business don't exist in the European single market of EU and EFTA countries. There is no need for borders. There are none between Eire and the UK.

They say:

In these tough and turbulent times, the size, strength and stability of the UK economy is a huge advantage for Scotland's businesses. Scotland's largest market is the rest of the UK. The UK is the world's oldest and most successful single market and the UK has the oldest and most successful currency - the pound.

I say:

The EU is a single market. If Scotland and the UK remain in teh EU there is no reason to fear. The age of the single market actually means very little. And frankly to suggest that sterling is the worlds most successful currency is just laughable. Would you like to provide some reference for this? The Yen, Swiss Franc, American Dollar may have slipped off your radar. The pound is barely managing to hold its own against the Euro.


They say:

Scottish businesses are increasingly having to win orders against smart, efficient and productive firms in foreign markets. These competitive challenges will only get tougher in the years ahead. The UK is better placed than a separate Scotland or England to help our businesses find and win new orders across the world.

I say:

Why? Could you explain why the UK can better crack markets in the growing economies in the East, in Africa and in South America.  I see absolutely no reason that that would be true. Incidentally, maybe you should remember that the UK as it stands, is more than Scotland and England. Wales and Northern Ireland may be small, but they do exist.

 ....Part 2 to follow.

60 comments:

  1. And I would say the totally separate Scottish NHS wasn't founded by a Welshman.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Yes true, Jutie.

      I wasn't too sure about that, but I hoped others would contribute more.

      Thanks

      Delete
    2. This is just off the top of my head, but I think the Highlands and Islands Health Board was established around 1910, and various other Health Boards were on the go pre WW2. The 1947/48? Act simply consolidated them. I'm enjoying a beer at the moment, so my facts are probably wrong. :-)

      Delete
    3. LOL. Beer and fact often don't go too well together, but I'm sure you'll correct yourself if you are wrong...

      Delete
  2. The entire premise of the union is outdated and no longer fit for purpose, pro-union supporters will not accept that any argument they make in favour of the union is an argument based on a false premise.

    We're moving their cheese and they don't like it.

    (Hat tip to Dr Spencer Johnson, author of the eye-poppingly patronising 'Who Moved My Cheese' a copy of which someone should send to Better Together HQ.)

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Change Happens
      They Keep Moving The Cheese

      Anticipate Change
      Get Ready For The Cheese To Move

      Monitor Change
      Smell The Cheese Often So You Know When It Is Getting Old

      Adapt To Change Quickly
      The Quicker You Let Go Of Old Cheese, The Sooner You Can Enjoy New Cheese

      Change
      Move With The Cheese

      Enjoy Change!
      Savor The Adventure And Enjoy The Taste Of New Cheese!

      Be Ready To Change Quickly And Enjoy It Again
      They Keep Moving The Cheese.

      Read it and weep Alistair.... :

      Nice reminder of Spencer Johnson's funny book...

      Delete
  3. Corporate UK needs Scotlands wealth to keep their personal friends happy.

    This should be interesting Max on R4 @6.30pm.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. That should be very interesting. If it is the 6.30 slot on Radio 4 it is repeated at 12.30 tomorrow morning.

      If not, of course it can be heard on the iplayer.

      Thanks for the heads up CH.

      For Information of Danny... This should be worth a listen now that the News Quiz is off...

      Delete
    2. Ok, but I think I'll be able to hear it tomorrow lunch time...ta.

      Delete
  4. Excellent article Tris, already looking forward to part two with bated breath. (Hmm how does someone bate their breath? lol)

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Hmmm not sure...

      I guess you put some cheese on it and hope that a mouse comes along...

      Thanks Arbroath.

      Delete
  5. tris


    someone always ends up being governed by a party they did not vote for
    more voted against the snp in the Scottish election. but you are happy to claim
    the right for the snp to rule.

    its the nature of Democracy


    And at the end of the day no matter who is in political power
    those with the money will rule no matter what the nation is called,
    Perhaps you should get what you wish for...............

    And then see Scots under the lash of their fellow scots and how much
    of the Common-weil is lost to the love of gold, scots gold.,english gold any gold at all.


    pa

    seems to me Alex is very happy to stay in the European Union any comment ????

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. For someone who blindly supported Labour blatantly ignoring their true face which others warned you about your assertions of any other party aren't worth tuppence halfpenny.

      Delete
    2. In a multi party state I guess that there is always the likelihood that the ruling party is simply the biggest party.

      But there is often not much in it.

      As far as Scotland is concerned, we have for many years voted less and less for the Tory party, and yet we gt more often than not, the Tory Party as our government.

      If we don't, as you know, we get a Labour aprty that is aping teh Tory party to [please the majority of the voters who live in the South East of England.

      I'm not knocking that, of course. If people in the south east of England largy think that sick people are scroungers and that foreigners are bad, and anyone on the dole should be forced to do slave labour in Tesco for their miserly pittance, then that is their business.

      They are, by and large, far better off than we are. The wealth of the Uk has been concentrated there...by Mrs Thatcher, and with no attempt at reversal by Mr Blair or Brown.

      Now I'm not saying Niko that Scots are all left wing, or socialist, or that there aren't a fair share of grasping greedy spivs here. of course there are. We've all met them.

      My ex boss is one of them. Dreadful woman, and I've got an aunt who's a bit like that. Also a dreadful snob of a woman.

      But the very fact that we have traditionally voted Labour, when it WAS Labour, suggests that there are more of us who actually care about one another than there are in England.

      We've had two Labour governments and two SNP government, both parties claim a slightly left of centre agenda.

      We can't have that as part of the UK. We are outvoted by the rich in the south.

      So far I've yet to hear one good argument that actually adds up for sticking with Adolf Cameron, his secret police, his WMDs and his Nazi style plan to make us all hate the sick, the poor, immigrants and now the old.

      It's vile. He's vile. His cabinet are vile and they will win the next election in London.

      If they don't it will be because Labour has got rid of Milibean, followed the same right wing route as Cameron and Farage. Not because the SE of England has suddenly become socialist.

      What do you think of the arguments that BT come up with here?

      Delete
    3. McCabe seems like a piece of sh*t to me, CH.

      Delete
  6. @Niko.
    I like to think of the jury system and government being similar.
    Judged by your peers, and ruled by your peers. Local folk that understand local issues.
    Old Etonians and London Labour luvvies aren't my peers.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. They're hardly even the same species.

      They live entirely different lives which rotate around a season of events. Elite sports, holidays in warm places, the opera, and the racing, Klosters adn a couple of weeks in Scotland shooting live things for pleasure.

      Sickening people.

      Delete
  7. "Who do you think you are kidding, Mr Hitler, if you think old ENGLAND's done?"

    I didn't realise that the Scots were fighting fascism as well.

    Tasgwynn

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. We didn't get much of a mention.

      Nor did anyone else, though. I mean the fact that without the Soviet Union's intervention (and the Eastern Front ... no one wins a land war in Russia in the winter) we'd all be speaking German now seems to be forgotten completely.

      It was an Anglo-American victory.

      Pffff...

      Delete
  8. Surely you mean a British-American victory, Tris.

    Tasgwynn

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Nah Tasgwynn, Anglo America... As you say. "if you think old England's done..."

      Delete
  9. The USSR defeated Hitler. If you can't see that, you must believe the BBC.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Or rather their weather did.

      I always thought it was strange that Hitler fell into the same trap as Napoleon and found himself in deepest Russia in the middle of winter. Hitler was such a reader of war strategies.

      Delete
  10. I wonder what they mean by "barriers to businesses"? Are they trying to suggest border controls or poorer employment conditions? In the event of a No vote and if the UK leaves the EU the European Working Directive will leave with it and the employees will be at the mercy of unscrupulous employers.

    niko,

    In an independent Scotland politicians will have to be more accountable to their constituents and their policies will have to be more in line with the wishes of their voters. At present we have to be governed, in the main, by two right-wing parties who have, of necessity, to cater for the vast majority of voters. With the advent of UKIP these party's policies will, again out of necessity, have to go in an even more right-wing direction. Labour, when in office, started it off and the Tories are more than happy to carry on in that direction and the worst is, I suspect, still to come.

    Will you be voting Yes or No in the referendum?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I suppose they may mean that Scotland in Europe will have trade barriers with an isolated UK that won't be able to trade freely with anyone else.

      They really need to think about this. America doesn't want much trade with the UK, apart from selling it weapons of mass destruction; the Commonwealth long ago established links with countries nearer them, whether in Asia, Africa or America; the EU would trade, but with barriers; it's unlikely that the Uk would be welcome in EFTA... with what countries would they trade?

      The Channel Islands? Not a big market... and only tomatoes, cream and flowers in return.

      Delete
    2. Brownlie

      I will be posting on my (now much neglected blog ) my considered
      opinion on the referendum. yes or no or none of the above.

      on the 18th September 2013

      until them you will have wait and see

      Delete
    3. About time you were posting something, you lazy scoundal. Even if it's only a picture of my wee mate Taz.

      Delete
  11. Incidentally, Tris, Hitler did not find himself in deepest Russia!

    John the pedant!

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Hmmm. Actually, of course, as ever, you are right, John.

      I suppose, in truth, HE didn't ever go anywhere near Russia. It was moderately warmer in Berlin and a lot warmer in the bunker.

      And, his armies didn't so much "find themselves", more "lost themselves" in deepest Russia.

      Of course, I suppose you could be even more pedantic and say that "deepest Russia" was actually nowhere near Moscow but much farther to the East. So perhaps his troops, or some of them found themselves in shallow Russia.

      Or, indeed, you could say that they were actually in the Soviet Union and that some of them invaded that construct through the Ukraine and not Russia.

      It's dreadfully complicated once you start being a peasant.... :)

      http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/education/worldwar2/theatres-of-war/eastern-europe/1939/

      I hope you weren't at the dancing last night, cavorting with half naked women, and partaking in alcohol? You do sound very crotchety this morning.

      Delete
  12. Dancing? half naked women? = how dare you? wash your mouth out with Dettol, naughty boy! "Start being a peasant" - your tory roots are showing??????

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Other disinfectants are available, just to prove this sites impartiality.

      Delete
    2. Oh Ok, I guess I should have known better.

      Asda own brand disinfectant liberally used (although I wish to point out that I have no connections to the Liberal Party!...

      Delete
    3. Well the BBC gets away with it, lets all join in.

      Delete
  13. The security services have a post-cold war mindset.

    The British public have a post-Iraq war mindset.

    UK voters will sooner trust the Mannings of the world than the intelligence services.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. And Scottish voters will sooner trust the Indy media than the MSM/BBC/LABOUR/INTELLIGENCE SERVICES cabal.

      Delete
    2. I still think the state will use the threat of terrorism against the independence movement.

      I wonder what they have planned for us.

      I now trust no one, but you're right I trust Manning, Assange or Snowdon well before I'd trust the security services, here or anywhere else.

      The BBC are in my opinion liars and cheats, as is the print media. Politicians are all to be mistrusted, including Scottish ones and the Scottish government. I'd say though that I distrust them less than the UK ones.

      And I have no doubt that the intelligence services are about as trustworthy as Dave Lee Travis and Rolf Harris.

      Delete
    3. In their eyes we are as we are against the British State which I suspect is why the hacking has not been reported by any of the MSM possibly by the use of a 'D' Notice. It is a wonder that the political degree scholar has not worked out that we live in an Elective dictatorship heading for Totalitarianism with a complicit, ignorant by design public.

      I says vote AYE in 2014.

      Delete
    4. Will it be 'aye' and 'dingy' on the ballot paper? I so hope it will!

      Delete
    5. No 'Aye' or 'Yes' just to keep things under Queensbury Rules no red or blue corners as we wouldn't like to confuse all nayesayers.

      Delete
    6. Yes... no doubt at all that we are considered as dangerous as the IRA were in their day.

      Delete
  14. Heads up on a poll from earlier this year I totally missed.

    A YouGov poll commissioned by the SNP in June 2013 suggested that 47% of voters would support independence if Yes Scotland could convince them "An independent Scotland would be fairer wealthier compared to the UK" with 45% saying they would vote no regardless.

    Do my fellow chaps still think its a walk in the park for a 'No' vote?

    http://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/c288p3zcpl/YG-Archive-SNP-results-030513-currency.pdf

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Why not go back to 1706?

      Or go to a Panelbase one in August which comes after June I believe but maybe the degree in politics 'expert' can confirm that I am wrong.

      Delete
    2. I meant to add did you listen to Gillian Flett and Max Keiser on Friday as you could learn an awful lot and it will only cost you 15 mins of your life if not save it.

      Delete
    3. I think I saw that one.

      People want to be wealthier, especially now when over the last 5 years wages have hardly moved, and in many cases have decreased, and prices,a t least of essentials have skyrocketed.

      I don't think it's ever been a walk in the park for NO, Dean. I really think that's bravado. But if they want to think that, fair enough...

      So far as i am aware there have been polls that show that if it looks like a Tory victory at the next UK election, the number of yes voters increases.

      IO always thought that was a tad silly, because, a) Labour won't do anything much different, and b) even if they did, the Tories will be back again, after one, or two elections.

      As it is, Labour are hardly setting the heather ablaze...although Ed can do well at conference and put some of his woes behind him, if he tries hard...

      Yes need to convince people that they will be better off, not paying for Trident, not subsidising the rest of the Uk, which all the figures show that they do.

      I'm pretty sure that we can get this through. We need to concentrate on the fact that the Uk government are far too busy running the world with the USA (and getting themselves a place in the history books) to bother their arses about the state of the trains or roads or the NHS...

      Delete
    4. PS. I ended up being out today all day helping a pal of mine move house.

      Will listen tomorrow morning. Thanks for reminding me.

      Delete
    5. SUPERB...

      For anyone who didn't listen, it's hilarious.


      And frightening.

      The most likely outcome, agreed by the two financial experts is that we can look forward to inflation as a way of paying back the debt.

      It will work, as it has done before. The only trouble is that people any distance from the top of the tree will be hurt out by it, and people at the bottom of the tree will be completely swamped.

      It's already happening. Normally wages inflation matches price inflation. For five years that has not been so. So those at the bottom get poorer and poorer.

      Delete
    6. If the vote comes down to which camp articulates a more positive vision for Scottish political, economic, social life... then the 'no' camp is ever so slightly fucked.

      Delete
    7. And the Yes Campaign hasn't really started yet.

      Cameron somewhat stupidly kicked the ball off long before it was necessary to do it. In the meantime the Yes Campaign has kept its powder dry. Some say it's been lacklustre.

      I think what it has done is try to not descend to the level of criticism that that the No campaign has, (although clearly some have on occasions).

      I think once the referendum bill is published we will see the positive image come to the fore.

      A written constitution; continued membership of the EUN (no party here has any desire to come out, and more people want to stay in than leave: compare that with England where a lot of Tories and some Labour, all of UKIP, and more than 50% 0f the population want out according to polls.)

      Much more to come...all positive. Even Danny Alexander admitted that people would be better off, and the only way he could make it look bad was by saying that if you took the figures over a period since Scottish Parliament we would all have been £1 a year WORSE off.

      That indicated we are doing better and better.

      Better unemployment figures than the UK too.

      And we can get rid of Trident. Nato or no Nato.

      The UK government said that having the submarines at Davonport was too dangerous, given that 11,000 people liven in the area. Only about 2 million Scots living close to Faslane, however, was acceptable risk. We can take that risk away from the people of the west central belt....

      There are simply so many advantages in being independent.

      The alternative is frightening.

      Delete
    8. "The alternative is frightening."

      I'm certainly coming to that view myself.

      Delete
    9. It seems to me to be clearer as time goes on.

      I used to look forward to independence, hoping that it would happen, but accepting that, if it didn't then, well, it didn't and we'd have to go on working for it in 10 or 15 years.

      Now I'm truly frightened of living in the UK. What is the next thing they will cut; what will they do away with. The news is always bad. And yet nothing...absolutely NOTHING happens to the people who cased this, and go on causing it by refusing to learn the lesson.

      Mainly because it didn't do THEM any harm.

      More and more QE, more and more debt, more bankers' bonuses and cut sickness benefits to pay for it; sell of the post office to pay for it; sell of the health service to pay for it...

      If we vote no, they will take the powers that we have away from us, either by revoking the rights to do whatever it is from Edinburgh (they can) or by starving us of the money we need to have the NHS or care or education or whatever.

      I'd have not to be rich and live in England now; if we don't have at least fiscal autonomy, it will have to happen here. And that is before the English start demanding less money for Scotland.

      Delete
  15. Sorry for being rude tris in not thanking you earlier for rubbishing the mince produced from Better Together but I cannot read much of their garbage before I put it into in my wormery as they relish dissecting it for recycling into plant food benefiting the environment and us no matter of our political leanings.

    ReplyDelete
  16. LOL CH...

    It's not rude.

    I'm surprised anyone bothers with it.

    ReplyDelete
  17. BTW I heard a rumour that B Macdougall has in the past been paid to write stuff for the MSM?

    Was that just a malicious rumour or has it been confirmed?

    ReplyDelete
  18. http://stephennoon.blogspot.co.uk/2013/08/onslaught.html

    This is worth a read.

    ReplyDelete
  19. Bated = abated i.e. held breath. Handy to know in the presence of strong cheeses.

    btw London/SE always gets the government it votes for. Nice for them eh.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Ooops...did I use it wrong,Andrew?

      Soz... I know how annoying that can be.

      Delete