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An independent Scotland will be in Nato so the subs and missiles will stay where they are tris. Nato decides where they go. Same with all of our other military assets in an independent Scotland.
Monty utter bollocks
Go read the Nato treaty that the SNP voted for kbw.
Aye.That's rubbish, at the SNP conference the inference was, if NATO insisted on the UK deterant staying where it is then it would be a deal breaker for membership.In any case, NATO doesn't work like that, the notion that a quasi-military/political organisation like NATO can dictate what a sovereign country can and cannot have in its territory is as KBW said: bollocks.
(You could argue, under the non-proliferation rule that they'd have to be moved out of Scotland as it would be a 'new' state.)
Sorry Monty. I agree with the 'bollocks' brigade.I can see a deal being struck that would allow RUK keep its missiles in our country until they had a suitable place to put them, for a financial consideration.I do admit that a future labour government in Scotland might want to be a nuclear power, but without the interference of Miliband and the right wing of the English Labour party, I reckon the grass root here would suddenly matter again to the leadership, and that Lamont would return to her previous belief that food and medicine for the poor was more important than being in the top people's club.I reckon the core Labour vote in Scotland would rather the poor be fed than that they have the wherewithal to kill billions.
So we would need a yes vote in 2014. An overall majority for the SNP in 2016 and an agreement from our Nato partners to remove Trident.So what happens if we fail to get all 3 of these ?
Pa. I agree. The deal said that if NATO said that they would have to remain; that they couldn't do without America's bombs (for they are America's bombs, and are included in their count, despite the fact that we pay for them) being placed in Scotland... then Scotland would simply say no to NATO.That's the way I understood the discussion and decision.Of course you can never guarantee what other parties would want.But I don't think that NATO would get in a state. There will still be nuclear weapons stored in France, and if NATO is all that powerful then I'm sure they could force another country to take them: Norway, Iceland, Denmark, Finland, Sweden, Germany, Poland...Why does it have to be Scotland?
There's nowhere else to put them tris. I suspect negotiations will rumble on until they end their natural lifespan. Can't see a sub being stuck at sea running low on food with it's base on lock down.
It might, Monty, be written into the constitution, in which case we wouldn't need anything except a +vote in 2014.Scotland couldn't afford their weapons. I know we will be rich, but £100 billion every 10 years is too much for even the 6th richest country in the world.England can't afford it, but the likes of Cameron will do ANYTHING to keep his status at the right hand of Go... sorry, the American president. Even Lamont isn't gullible enough to think that she could be a world player.We don't need NATO to agree to anything. The deal was that either we were rid of the weapons or we were rid of NATO and the weapons.
Scotland votes differently from the UK on so many things. http://wingsland.podgamer.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/bubposter2.jpg
There's no deal tris. Pa said we had 'an inference' at the last conference. Inferences aren't legal and binding. To build new docking facilities for Trident would require billions and a natural deep water port with shelter.Like I said they will stay there until their useful life is up. Allowing new facilities to be built somewhere else in the meantime.
I used the word inference, not the SNP at their conference. I used it because that is what I took from their decision. They (the SNP) have promised to get rid of trident, if NATO dig their heals in and tell us we need to keep it where it is, then we don't join NATO.I'm not a member of the SNP, I just watch the news and read a lot.In any case, this entire argument just detracts from the actual post, which was about MOD double standards in terms of how they regard the worth of people in Scotland (or how they regarded it historically.)I've read the NATO treaty and there isn't anything in there to back up what you're saying. At least, not by my interpretation.To my mind, this is just fogging the main point being made.
Pa..didn't mean to fog the main topic of the post so won't comment any further. Just a slight correction first though. You said.." if NATO dig their heals in and tell us we need to keep it where it is, then we don't join NATO."This is looking down the wrong end of the telescope.We're staying in Nato (after the conference vote) so it's not a case of refusing to join something.Oh and don't watch the news. It's 99% propaganda and lies. That's why people believe in global warming and windmills.
TrisOne minute you snp drones whingeOn and on and on how nuclearWeapons are unnecessary .due toThe UK having no enemies wishing To nuke us. Yet here you are disassemblingA load of nonsense over nuclearArmageddon for ScotlandYou'll get a mention in dispatchesFrom ALex for propaganda forThe snp above the call of duty .Anyway more sensible topic What about David milibandSaying he accepts the: Tory Envelope : on there cutsEr why? That's not leadershipIt's more followership.He would have different Prorities. That's a bit like sayingHe would torture as nicely.What's the feck wrong withThese New labour who keepTrying to give us Tory lite.It's over people don't wantIt now is the time forFair decent policies .Obviously you won't get them fromThe snp
19000 jobs at risk at Faslane.http://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/referendum-news/yes-vote-would-put-19000-faslane-jobs-at-risk.19860457Independence catastrophic for Rosyth http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/scottish-independence-independence-catastrophic-for-rosyth-claim-unions-as-snp-accused-of-ignoring-shipyard-for-five-years-1-2723904Do the Nats care at all about defence or jobs?
Yes, we also tend to regard stories published in the Scotsman or Herald with a pinch of salt.Monty.We're not staying in NATO because we'll no longer be in it come independence.The choice will be there, SNP have made it quite clear, the non-nuclear stance takes precendence over the pro-NATO one, from a purely (cynical) political POV, the SNP aren't going to shoot themselves in the foot by not getting rid of trident, or at the very least, making those kind of noises.I watch the news but believe very little of it, global warming is an example, the two stories above from 'braveheart' are another.
Good I'm glad that's over.Now, as Pa says, the point of the post was that 11,000 Plymouth citizens are too important to risk, but 1.5 million Glaswegians can go sod off and die in the interested of fat boy Cameron be allowed to play at being important.So that's what we are worth in the eyes of the top tranche.
Why won't we get that from the SNP Niko?What so far has given you the impression that we wouldn't get fairness from them?Don't you like the fact that they build council houses?Don't you like the fact that they stopped their sale?Don't you like the insistence that the NHS stays a public service?Don't you like that schools are kept in public ownership?Don't you like that they will step in where they can to help the poorest against the killing cuts of the murdering Tories, who sat and laughed as labour put up some sort of fight (I thought, for the first time, that Byrne (the bit I saw) wasn't too bad)?David Miliband is a Tony (that is a Blairite Tory). If he had won the leadership, I reckon the two parties would have merged at the general election and left the Liberals as the opposition, and Dave Miliband would be deputy prime monster. I feel for you Niko. I really do. It must be like it would be for me if the SNP said that actually wanted to stay in the UK!What did you do with Harry Harman's plea to rejoin...?
Well, these are scare stories which have already been debunked (actually, if memory serves, by the MoD saying the figures are all wrong). However the unionist press never lets inaccuracy get in the way of some nasty propaganda for the independence lobby.But there you go. If you want to create LOADS of jobs why don't we just get more and more and more weapons and start killing more and more people all over the world. Tony Blair's and David Cameron's idea of heaven I've no doubt, to look big and strong and Churchillian. How many did we kill in Iraq... how many little boys with no arms, or legs? How many people maimed beyond recognition?How many of our servicemen maimed... Oh sorry, you won't know that because it is top secret.If what you want is a country that has an extra few thousand jobs, because it has the wherewithal to kill everyone in China, Braveheart, then fine. Don't ask me to want to live in it.I've no wish to make sure that the West has control of the oil by killing Muslims at any opportunity.
Comical Alex AKA Bravefart.Had a busy day comical, all these posts on the Herald website, you must be panicking.19000 imaginary jobs lost at Faslane according to the Herald reporting Davidsons committee. Davidson on radio at lunchtime 21000 jobs at risk, you would think he was just making it up as he goes along, oh thats right he is just making it up as he goes along. After all a freedom of information request for CND (remember them Alex? when Brown and Blair were members) said 525 jobs at Faslane dependant on Trident.Monty ten minutes after independence a tug can throw a tow rope to the subs, they can be towed anywhere England wishes to park them. The river Thames near Westminster bridge would be ideal location.
TrisThought that you might be interested in Alistair Darlings three reasons why we are better together. He was at the British Legion in Inverness."Inside, Mr Darling, who is chair of Better Together and the first high-profile politician to visit the North on the campaign trail in advance of the 2014 independence referendum, argued there are three reasons to stay in the Union.He said: “One is economic, firms can sell goods and services into a larger single market, the second is we have influence in the world, for example the Eurpoean Union, the big countries call the shots, and the third is the powerful emotional argument, we are Scottish, and we are proud to be English, we don’t have to choose.”Yes thats right according to him we are Scottish and we are proud to be English. What a great reason to be bitter together.Link to article,http://www.highland-news.co.uk/News/Alistair-Darling-comes-to-Inverness-on-Better-Together-campaign-trail-09012013.htm
We can debate all we want, weapons of mass destruction are wrong and I despise the fact my country has them on their soil.
Just read the Darling piece, the man is obviously confused following the flipping of his home so many times. Plus he is a fud as well.
trisDear Nikostratos, First of all, Happy New Year and welcome to 2013 from all of us here at heraldscotland.com. If you’ve got any suggestions about what else we should add, email me at email@example.com. And in the meantime, keep reading, Calum Macdonald, Digital Editor Yep i certainly will God being a unionist is so fab
Yes Dubs. Figures were made up. It was 9000 I think when Lamontable had a go about them.Take a figure, any figure, multiply it by what ever you feel like and add on a few thousands for spite and then report it in your unionist rag to see if you can't boost the reader figures a little.I expect one day to read that 4.5 million jobs are dependent on the WMDs.Load of rubbish. As I said, even the Ministry of War spluttered in laughter at the figures that Labour has been spouting. We all know they couldn't count (hence the catastrophic debt) but to manage 19,000, then later 21,000 [perhaps they have all been irradiated and are breeding like rabbits]... dear or dear.
Bloody hell, Dubs...we are Scottish and proud to be English!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!????OOOOOOOOPS....As far as I can see the single market is safe as long as both England (and whoever stays with them) and Scotland stay in the EEA. In any case, if Scotland does it has the whole of Europe to trade with whatever England does.As for influence in the world, well, I don't think the UK has much in the EU. Mostly other countries would be happy with the moaning harpies would sod off. In the UN the UK only has influence because 90 odd per cent of the time it backs America. And even when natural British feelings would be to vote for something that America votes against, the UK either votes against or (as recently over Palestine) abstains. The UK is a broken old has been that still plays it big: a fur coat and no knickers, which, to be able to afford its big boy toys has to starve its poor to death and make do with antiquated infrastructure. and the 'embassies in almost every country in the world' rubbish is just an example of that. I'd rather they closed half of them and fixed the potholes.Clearly, of course, Darling Alistair is right about the last bit... we are all proud as punch to be English... Who would ever doubt it?Nob head!
PS Dubs. Thanks for the article...He said: “One is economic, firms can sell goods and services into a larger single market, the second is we have influence in the world, for example the European Union, the big countries call the shots, and the third is the powerful emotional argument, we are Scottish, and we are proud to be English, we don’t have to choose.”...is a quote I will keep...
Yeah Bruce... if a man is always forgetting where he lives, it really is time for him to stand down and take things more easily.BTW...is it not time that Annabel Goldie and Chic Kennedy did their bit for Butter Together....?Like you, I'm ashamed Scotland has WMDs when there are people living in cardboard boxes for the want of housing, and there isn't enough money to pay seriously ill people Incapacity Benefit.Deeply ashamed. Because what that says to the world is that we are a horrible uncaring people...and we are not.We're far too busy being proud to be English, I suppose.
Niko:"....welcome to 2013 from all of us here at heraldscotland.com."Usually, when you welcome people into something, it is something over which you have some sort of proprietorial call. Is the Herald suggesting that they own 2013?Actually, I hate to disappoint you, but even us lowly nationalists got a letter from the Herald.Of course it didn't say the same as you unionists' letter said. It was more along the lines of..."... we notice that regrettably you didn't eat or drink yourself to death over the festive season..."...if you have any suggestions, keep them to yourself as they will doubtless be swivel-eyed nat ideas which aren't worth the paper that you use to write them on..."Clearly no one told the Herald that emails don't use paper, but it's a small matter.Munguin's Republic was going to send out letter s like that too, but in the end we couldn't be arsed. :)
TrisHis three reasons are total crap just the usual non scare storys.Access to bigger markets? Will the USA stop importing whisky if Scotland is independent.Bigger country's have more clout? which country holds the presidency of the EU at present little old Ireland.At least my Chas and call me Dave records are safe he never mentioned that we will loose British music, The Scotsman calling him stupid about that must have hurt, how dare they go off message.Will they ever come up with a benefit of this septic union?
Alastair DarlingI want my knighthood that comes before any benefit 'scrounger' like those about to be made redundant from Jessops because my rich friends in the Arab States pay me very well thank you. Any swearword you like can be added with relish. ******* ****.
Yep Dubs. He may regret saying that the bigger nations have the clout, although to a certain extent it is true... but the UK has very little clout, basically because it isn't at the heart of Europe, and mostly people hate them. (Michael Portillo owned up to that recently.)Than goodness I will still be able to play Petula Clark cds; they won't change the readers will they?If they do, I may have to rethink this!!!
CH: This is what it is all about. The man's K.He should know that although he was a dead loss at every ministerial job he had, culminating in making a complete mess of the financial crisis, he will still; get a K and go to the house of dreary numpties. He surely must know that at a certain level the UK rewards failure.Imagine these people at Jessops... the scroungers.I've got two perfect words that fit these stars...Anyway, I'm off to bed to relish being proud to be English... Night...:)
TrisYou say that Darling 'will still get a K and go to the house of dreary numpties'.But what if Scotland votes 'Yes' first?I do not think any more Scots will get peerages from the EWNI Prime Minister after independence, and quite possibly existing Scottish peers will be kicked out of the Lords expenses trough even if they are allowed to keep their silly titles. Perhaps that is one reason why Darling and some others wants to save the union.
When I compare you seditious mob Of unpatriotic malcontents .With those brave honest decent Stalwart union men.Struggling to keepOur flag flying highAnd free inBelfast.I feel heartily sickAnd pukey
Niko,Are you sure they are stalwart?I have always thought of them as members of an historical re-enactment group that has gone horribly wrong.
Scaraben... HI... Nice to see you.Yes. That's what I meant. The whole campaign, for folk like Darling, is about the fact that if we leave their union, he won't enjoy the retirement home he has been counting on for all these years... at £300+ a day!Actually, even if he gets the titles before we leave he won't be able to sit in the Lords.Tat explains the vitriol that the likes of ffoulkes and Mental Mick Forsyth pour on independence.it's about their comfortable club in London, and these nice red benches, so comfortable to sleep of a couple of bottles of good tax-payer subsidised claret ...If we really were in it together all that would have stopped.
Awww Niko, bless you... are you all sick and pukey?Never mind. I'm sure that Mrs Robinson will look after you, hug your head to her breasts... ohh no, wait a minute... you're not a teenager, are you.Nope, you'll get sod all!You're better off with us. Maybe Subrosa will give you a wee hug!
Hey Douglas.... LOL LOL LOLYes, they are a bit like that... apprentice boys? Most of them are 140 if they are a day!Stall Warts!