Friday, 21 August 2015

HAVE ALISTAIR AND BLAIR LOST THEIR RIGHT TO VOTE FOR CONSORTING WITH THOSE WHO DON'T SHARE LABOUR VALUES?

OR, MAYBE THEY DO SHARE LABOUR VALUES...?

At the Tory Party Conference Fringe, these two look at home together...
We'll keep the blue flag flying here.
As people, from the well known Jeremy Hardy and Mark Steel, to folk with no public profile, but with years of support of the Labour  Party (including making donations and canvassing for them), are denied a vote in the leadership election because they "don't share Labour's values", some, allegedly, for as little retweeting a comment from someone in another party, I was wondering if talking at Conservative Party Conferences would debar the likes of D and McD  from casting their votes.

As it goes, I wonder what these values that some of their supporters don't share, actually are.

Anyone got any idea what Labour actually stands for? 

And, would Keir Hardie get a vote in the current leadership contest?

44 comments:

  1. The Labour party are being destroyed by the Tories within and without their party.
    I'm old enough to remember 'old' Labour, and most of their present MP's would be too right wing to have got in Thatchers cabinet.

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    1. That's interesting Jutie. I'm reading Simon Jenkins "Thatcher and Sons", and looking back at her policies, seeing them taken apart by him, I'm beginning to realise that, by today's standards, she was a bit of a pussy cat!..at least in some ways

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    2. Wrong species, she was a bitch.

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    3. She was the bitch who helped win the cold war and kept Scargill's communist thugs in their place , a great woman .

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    4. That's a matter of opinion. The Cold War I'd say was "won" if it was at all, by Gorbachev, who decided to bring the Soviet Union into the 20th century, and presumably Ronnie who went along with it.

      I think too that you must consider the damage that she did in taming the miners. She destroyed communities. She started so many things that Major, Blair and Brwon and now the Eton Boy have developed. most of them were bad.

      Most of all the title bitch will be her's forever, because of the fact that she knew about and did nothing about the sexual perversions of some of her cabinet members, advisers adn others in the establishment.

      How many children dies becasue of it?

      She built a new England, she lost Scotland for the Conservatives, but it was an England that's rather shabby and spiv like. It's all about money, not about care or compassion.

      Thatcher was a woman who was determined to get on, and get on she did. She was relatively bright (you don't get a double first in chemistry and law even at Oxford without being quite clever) and she was also a workaholic becasue she had nothing else. She had no friends, little relationship with her family and no outside interests.

      Most of all she had an iron will and a strong personality. Added to the ridiculous deference given to prime ministers, and the fact that most of her cabinet were either weak, useless idiots or had great secrets to hide, she ruled them with an iron rod.

      She was indeed a bitch, and that is praising her.

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  2. Labour stand for, power for powers sake, this is obvious listening to the right wingers standing for leadership.

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    1. They aren't putting forward any particularly different policies to the Tories. All they seem to want is the power to do what the Tories would do.

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    2. Remember, if you're a minister you get more cash.

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    3. Yes. Most cases about double I think at Cabinet level.

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    4. As do all communist scumbags.

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  3. Anyone got any idea what Labour actually stands for? Labour have no idea what Labour actually stands for... It all disappeared when Blair came on the scene and only Niko is left....

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    1. never fear brownlie Old Labour like the Frankenstein monster is coming back
      to have his revenge on the new Labour barons....or die with a stake in his heart
      or in flames not sure which............but you get the gist.

      Its not only me either me brother voted for Jeremy.......and Independence

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    2. Your brothers a wise man, Nico.

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    3. Jimminy

      He never called me wise many other unrepeatable names but not wise..
      still family wot can you say....

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    4. Well, it seems that there is more than Niko, John. Of course a lot of them are going to be barred from voting, so I'm not sure that it will make much difference.

      Did Taz get to your brother, Niko?

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  4. I believe that any party that poses a threat to Westminster gets infiltrated by the Establishment. Look at all the ex Communists and Trots that joined the Labour party, and are now in the House of Toadys. The State are past masters at infiltrating and subverting any organisation that poses s threat.

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    1. It wouldn't surprise me if Darling, from a Tory family, was recruited at Uni. He is now being rewarded for long service to the State.

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    2. I think that once you get there it must be really hard not to begin to enjoy the luxury and deference that people treat you with... and you think...well, why not?

      It doesn't happen to everyone.

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  5. tris

    You make the intentional mistake as all exremist nats do (snigger )
    of conflating new Labour with honorable trustworthy and lovable Old Labour
    with its evil dopple ganger new Labour.

    We are hopefully at the beginning of the purge of new labour ideology and its
    venomous adherents. I mean Jeremy Hardy of all people card carrying radio
    four member being proscribed from casting a vote wot on earth . Mark steel
    well not sure on that one ????

    I find it a fascinating example of Democracy in action, bitterly contested and corrupted
    to each others advantage who can vote who cant vote. Long term Labour members it is
    suggested should carry more weight in the election as opposed to newbies or £3 joiners.
    In the vain hope of keeping a new labour majority some hope some chance .

    As in Scotland the democratic genie is out with the bottle and it aint going back
    if they try to thwart the settled will of the labour people well we know how that will
    turn out in any rerun ......

    the only thing i will point out (with a smidgen of mischief ) is this how will the snp
    ruling clique fair with all their overwhelming newbies and where they want the party
    to go....be interesting that one.
    Democracy fascinating aint it

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    1. Where is this snp ruling clique fair being held? Are they having Morris dancers? Newbies are welcomed into the SNP and will FARE very well, unlike any new, (or old) members of the Labour party, who seem to be immediately disenfranchised.

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    2. Well, he may be a bit Islington, but he's a good laugh, and he does tear the Tories to pieces on every show he's ever on. I heard he was on Any Questions tonight, along with Corbyn. I bet that was good!

      I think it will be interesting to see how the members, newbies as well as originals will vote about things in the conference this year. I don;t think anyone would suggest for a minute that it is business as usual when your membership quadruples over night.

      I think that the SNP may have some problems, some disgruntled members and some people will leave. But I'm always a pessimist!

      It will be interesting to find out eventually what Ms Dugdale's policies will be dependent on which leader she has to work for.

      It's time for a change though, and Corbyn just could be that change we all need. How the right wing will take it, I don't know. I wonder who will serve in his shadow cabinet. I wonder what all the New Labourites will do, now that the House of Lords will be out of reach.

      But probably Cameron is dreading that they will pull together. A real opposition working with the other parties (SNP, Plaid, Greens, etc) could vote down Cameron's agenda.

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  6. I was having a heated debate about this elsewhere; I was positing the notion that since there are 16m people registered to vote who don't (over and above the 30-odd-million who do) could it be that they're predominantly left wing types but with no one to give there vote to?

    I was arguing with a Tory - he said it was rubbish, the reason people voted the Tories in was because they realised socialism and lefty type ideas faded into insignificance when placed next to the glory that is Toryism.

    He said people wanted things back to 'normal' - his idea of normal being somewhere to the right and several levels of hell below Thatcher. He also confusingly posited the notion that the SNP had no policies other than to shirk responsibility by blaming everything on Westminster. I pointed out that Westminster was sort of responsible over all for things and his party were in government - so he was being a bit hypocritical.

    But I digress. We're being conditioned into thinking people like Corbyn and so-called left wing policies are moronic when actually, they aren't really. (Both sides have their crazy fringes, but no way is the right somehow excluded from that.)

    Its a shame UK Labour aren't being as diligent with their mailing lists as they're being with their voter's roll. I still get crap in my inbox from them after filling out one of their silly surveys.

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    1. Someone was pointing out that Corbyn's policies are not incredibly different from some that Blair was elected on in 1997. Renationalisation of the railways, for example. Blair also admitted that Trident was just a status symbol to keep the Uk at the top table, but was but had no real strategic purpose.

      I don't get Tories who aren't somewhere in the top 10%. Why would anyone who wasn't rich and able to benefit from the tax breaks vote for them? Why would anyone who could find themselves out of a job without an old school tie to get them a new one... on a few hundred thousand in the bank to tide them over, ever want a situation where they could actually starve to death? Why would anyone who couldn't afford real private health care want their health service run for profit?

      It's mad!

      I'm still getting letters from the Tories occasionally after I showed an interest on one of their pre election pleas for money. Mind you they still think I'm called Peregrine Fotherington-Smythe!

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  7. I haven't mastered how to put photos like those on twitter, but it would be worth doing that in response to some of the witless tweets I see.

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    1. Brian, save them to your computer; go to Twitter, and in your tweet box, click on the photo symbol...

      Easy, but also a great idea! let's do it.

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  8. You know Tris, there are a lot of folks around these days who blame Climate Change on a whole loads of different things but they all miss out the one thing that has really caused climate change ... the speed that Keir Hardie is spinning in his grave as a result of the Three Amigo's, sorry Three Tories, squabbling to kick out the one true original Labour contender for the leadership oh dear old Keir's dying party.

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    1. That's probably what causes all those earthquakes we have been having. I'd expect top see steam coming out of the ground.... He wasn't buried in Iceland was he?

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  9. The Labour Party hierarchy are behaving in a disgraceful manner. I liken it to the gerrymandering scandal some years ago, where the council ousted those who would not be expected to vote Tories.

    Political parties do all go through stressful times and splits, but this is being engineered at the very top in order to keep out the candidate who appears to be the favourite to win. The reason for this is that he is popular with the rank and file members.

    What really riles me is that this continual campaign is designed to be what is best for the Labour Party - not democracy.

    MPs and MSPs first loyalty is and must always be to their constituents, no matter what their political leanings are. They are elected to serve the community, no one else.

    The second priority is to the country, whether or not you believe is separation or not. You respect the will of the people.

    Party loyalty comes last. Elections are not designed to be the culmination of a five year election campaign.

    I listened to Jeremy Hardy on Radio 4 this morning. The Labour Party did not send anyone to represent themselves. That speaks volumes.

    I don't agree with all of Corbyn's policies. However, I want him to win in order to clean out some of the crap that has insinuated itself into UK politics. I don't want far left or far right politics, but we need a change, much as we did in 1979 and 1997.

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    1. Exactly...what is best for the current leadership of the Labour party.

      What is best for Harman, Blair, and the rest of the quasi Tory party that only cares what the floating SE voter thinks.

      MPs are there to do their jobs for their constituents. I can understand party loyalty when they party means something, but putting the party above everything is just a nonsense, and actually equates to putting their own careers above everything.

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    2. Eh? Independence is not separation, it is integration; with all the other independent countries of the world.
      The great change in 79, from a useless Labour government, to an evil Tory one. Thatcher would have been out on her iron arse in 83, if the Argentinians hadn't invaded a group of islands few people had heard about. Her first term was an unmitigated disaster, for Tory lovers, the rest of her time was a disaster for every one else; we are still paying for her little social engineering experiment. And Blair was a twat too.

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    3. Thatcher said that her greatest achievement was Blair. That should tell you all you need to know about him.

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    4. My views are in flux on an elected members loyalties. The Party elected should represent those who elected it. The government should represent every citizen. But the individual members should stand as independents if they want it to be "their" views they are elected on.

      I think people who take the party's money and help to get elected should not be so arrogant as to think its not the "party" which was elected.

      Yes we want personalities. But we vote for Parties.

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    5. Great argument between loyalty to party manifesto and loyalty to constituents.

      I reckon that it is rare that the constituents really make their feelings well known... and in any case, as you must represent not just YOUR voters, but also the people who voted against you, it is probably impossible to do that.

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    6. jim

      I was stating separation from Labour's point of view. They see it as separation. My point is that they must respect the views of those Labour party members who do support independence.

      My personal view is that any politician who places their party before constituents has no place in Holyrood or Westminster. Something Labour obviously does not believe in.

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    7. Seems fair to me, and I would suspect most people.

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  10. Her greatest achievement was the Scottish Cringe. Whilst we must, I find it hard to excuse anyone who voted no.

    I have no idea what it would take for say 15% of the Scottish electorate to appreciate that they are worshipping at her shrine. Because, whether they would acknowledge it or not, whether they are Labour or Liberal or pensionable Tories, that is exactly what they are doing.

    They have sold their independent thought processes to a mausoleum. The Gloriana of a state that hasn't existed for a hundred years or more. And, frankly, should never have existed in a better world.

    Theirs is a sin against sense or independent thought.

    (In the atheistic sense, obviously)

    But these are the folk that believe in a narrative that many Scots have seen through.

    The question is, what woud it take for some of them to jump?

    I have no answer to that.

    Except perhaps that as my generation dies off, with its fears of pension loss, it's ridiculous fealty to the crown, it's belief in print journalism, it's abject belief in 'we're all in it together' or we should just keep a stiff upper lip whilst the Tories rape our country in the name of a few?

    My generation let you all down. It was the old that sold it.

    Hopefully, the impending death of print journalism, their inability to recognise alternative voices, the general contempt for the BBC, etc, etc. means that our future is brighter that what a lot of old codgers seems to think it is.

    I know this is a bit of a rant.

    But the future is bright, the future is a Saint Andrews Cross flying at the United Nations.

    That, tris, is the dream.

    I hope to see it sometime sooner that later.



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    1. Douglas, it was not the "old that sold it", it was the lying snake oil sales men/women, from project fear; aka I'm alright in my cosy little world of British politics. Though a shed load of them got a reality check in may.

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    2. Well, we must remember that it wasn't ALL the old. I spent referendum day taking old folk, some of whom could hardly walk, to vote for independence.

      But there is no doubt that the younger the demographic, the more enthusiasm for independence, so the likelihood is that it will come.

      But Jim's right. Many of the old would never have worried about their pensions if people like Gordon Brown hadn't told them they would be left penniless.

      What a completely stupid idea, but people believed it. I think it's true to say that older people tend to have a built in respect for "authority"... politicians, whereas younger ones know perfectly well that they are, by and large, not worthy of that respect.

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    3. At the risk of stirring jim up a bit :p

      It wasn't just project fear, but project utopia as well. Neither side did themselves any favours. Private Eye did a cover where Yes vision was heaven and No vision was Hell. Whereas the truth was somewhere in between. My argument with the undecided was that in reality, little would change for most people, however, was that we would have a more representative government who would have to listen to us via the ballot box.

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    4. I agree anon, the YES campaign was too positive. They should have done a protect fear type thing, showing the dangers of staying in the union, some of which has come to pass.

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  11. Labour values are much the same as most other parties-as long as their is value to be had milking an apathetic electorate they will continue to do so,hand in hand with their good friends and partners in crime,the banksters.

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