Tuesday, 24 June 2014

RANDOM THOUGHTS...



Why is it that the No campaign don't want their arguments for unionism recorded and disseminated?

Are they ashamed of them? Are they ashamed of the performers?

Are they worried that they will lose the argument?

Or do they think that in the cold light of day, watched on Youtube by thousands, the so-called benefits of the union will be shown, as the guy on the video indicates, to be a pile of Blethers Together?
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My leaflet from the UK government came through the door this morning, and will be going back this afternoon.
It is a mixture of generalisation, meaningless platitude and downright lies.
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Still, I look forward to Mr Salmond and Mr Darling debating with one another live on STV.

Of course there are those who have suggested that Salmond has backed down. 

And it does indeed look like that. He wanted to debate with the prime minister and has found himself instead being relegated to debating with a part time, opposition backbencher who used to hold of "one of the great offices of state" as Britain likes to call the people at the top of their governments. 

But Cameron won't debate for various reasons, depending on who you ask. 

Some say it's because he knows his unpopularity in Scotland would result in more people supporting Salmond out of sheer hatred of the Tories and the Eton Toff himself.

Some say that it's because he thinks himself, and his great office, as being above debates with mere regional functionaries.

Some say that he simply isn't knowledgeable enough to debate on the subject and knows he would be roundly beaten.

He, on the other hand, says it's because it's nothing to do with him...he's not Scottish and he doesn't live in the country... which is strange considering the fact that he is Scotland's prime minister, not to mention the number of times that he has intervened in the topic when he was not face to face with the first minister, and how he has persuaded world statesmen including the American and Chinese presidents to get involved.

Actually, I'm not sure why Mr Darling agreed to playing substitute to Cameron. It seems almost like he's been set up to take the blame if, or when, it all goes wrong. Cameron knows that having someone else do the dirty work will mean that he can pass the blame. 

Despite his once being a lawyer and an advocate, I don't honestly think that Darling is equal to taking Salmond on in a debate, at least on on this subject. Labour appears to think that he is a superb debater absolutely on top of his brief. But I'm dubious. Under pressure, he speaks too fast, stutters, says "you know" over and over again and he contradicts himself.

Salmond, like him or loathe him, is a pretty neat debater. He never seems to get flustered and remains always polite even when up against people like Lamont and Baillie, who would try the patience of a saint with their stupidity and their lies. Above all, whilst Alistair is relatively new to the independence debate, for Alex, it is a life's work. There's not a lot he doesn't know about it.

Added to that, and perhaps most importantly, Alex is the leader of the government that will be in power on the 19th of September, and whatever way the referendum goes, he will have a leading voice in the way that negotiations with the UK go.

Alistair is a back bench opposition MP. He won't be in power anywhere. Alex will be able to use that in the debate.

Following had on the heels of the referendum UK general election campaign, where, in a tight contest *between an incredibly unpopular Tory government and a Labour party led by a man that his own side think is weird, and which has very few discernibly different policies from the government, every little point scored will count. 

It will not be in Cameron's interests to abide by promises made in the heat of a live tv debate, by a member of the party that he is trying to defeat.

*I suppose, in the interests of equality, I should add, "and a Liberal party..." whose members are deserting them in droves.

39 comments:

  1. Said this morning on the Wee Ginger Dug that I do not like this debate and I wish the First Minister had not agreed, Mr Darling is an irrelevance in this, he heads a group who wants to retain the Union that is all. He has no position of authority and can agree to nothing. Now David Cameron can be roasted and toasted and he has the authority to agree with the First Minister. Alistair Darling has been accorded a position of importance by this debate which he should not have. If he likes his position is to debate with Denis Canavan who holds the same position as him. I doubt he would have liked that as it might have appeared to be doing a fellow Labour ( never ex) down,

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    1. I see your point Helena, but I also think that Alex will win, and it will give him 2 hours of primetime tv to put over the case.

      Cameron was never going to say yes to a debate. He has nothing to lose really. In Scotland we might think he is a coward, but so what? He doesn't get any seats here. More likely to lose the one he's got than gain anything.

      Although I'm not putting Alistair down as a total walk over, I think Alex will beat him handsomely, and he'll be able to use the fact that he is debating with a back bencher, and an opposition one, to ridicule the situation.

      It's a pity, genuinely, for the good of democracy, that the PM is such a yellow bellied wimp.

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    2. Helena

      The only reason that I think AS has taken up the challenge is to provide some raw red meat for the footsoldiers and depress the naesayers.

      Darling eviscerated on live TV will be like a car crash, horrible and gorey but you will not be able to take your eyes off it.

      I need to get a UK proxy for this one.

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  2. Tris I suggest checking out Blog on Roll, Still Raining, Still Dreaming, made the point i am trying to make beautifully.

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    1. BTW... that was up to his usual high standard, and bang on what we have all been saying..

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  3. There is that, and it would have been far better for the BBC to "empty seat" Cameron.

    It does rather make the point that Cameron doesn't consider himself the PM of Scotland though, doesn't it?

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  4. In addition to "you know", annoyingly Darling says "look", which sounds like a command. Carry on flipper.
    On the other hand I hope AS doesn't do his chortle which makes him sound as if he's choking, and sticks to his "serious statesman" performance.

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    1. I think a lot of them say "look"... I'm not sure Eck doesn't.

      But it does sound like they are talking down to you when they do it.

      Yes, I hope that Eck is at his best... logical, polite, knowledgeable and statesman like.

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    2. Seanair, when they use that word LOOK, they are losing the argument. Alex Salmond is a better debater than any of them, I have no problem with the First Minister debating with anyone, he normally is affable,unflappable and unfailingly polite whilst he wipes his shoes with them. Some fool in the Herald had the temerity to say that it was because of the atmosphere in Holyrood, someone reminded him that Alex learned his trade in the poisonous atmosphere of Westminster. Our Alex, has passion and cares deeply about his country and it shows. He would be the first to admit he makes mistakes, but he is not a (sorry Tris) a lying toad like so many who infect the three major parties. Heard yesterday that the three other opposition leaders (included I think Farage) all held the same views on Europe as David Cameron, so we in Scotland should actually know our place, our First Minister certainly is not accorded respect in London.

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  5. Have you written "mince" in the margins and sent it back freepost yet?

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    1. I am waiting on my usual carryout menus to pad the envelope with, if I do not get any in and that will be a surprise it will go with what I have. Suggestion, any other unwanted mail should be sent there as well.

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  6. Where do I send mine?

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    1. Better Together
      FREEPOST RTAU-ZCRB-TELS
      5 Blythswood Square
      Glasgow
      G2 4AD

      Delete
  7. When I saw the leaflet I thought ' what poor value for money, how did they manage to spend 720k on this tawdry piece of rubbish'

    The printer and the Royal Mail made a mint from a very poor production.

    .......and that's nice.

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    1. Well, I guess that sums up Westminster, doesn't it:

      They do a bad job, so their mates who own the Royal Mail, whichever printer company ran these up, and whatever "image consultants" designed the thing, all get to make a mint off of taxpayers' money.

      ---
      "If a crime is big enough, then no-one will prosecute it"

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    2. Yes agreed.

      I had to look twice, I though it was from Pizzaland or Vision Express.

      Poor value for money, like everything else they do. But doubtless it will have made some of their friends a good sum, and there may be directorships a plenty in the future to enhance the House of Lords giveaway...

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  8. wurrafuk

    I can comment now but not since a week past the last Tuesday in May

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    1. it's that French interweb thingy...

      It's probably been on strike.

      Seriously .........no earthly idea why not Bugs...

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    2. For some reason it was not accepting my google account at sign in. I just posted on Scot goes Pop and had to do the same sign, which worked, and now yours does too.

      buggered if I understand it.

      32 C today

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    3. 32 C

      Can I come and live with you? I don't mind working for my keep, please.

      Delete
  9. Filling a booklet with what can only be described as lies and mis-leading information, seems to be the no camps trump card, but more and more people are learning the truth of independence online, through blogs and social media. If there's one thing I've learned over this campaign its the unionist parties will say and do almost anything to hold onto Scotland and its wealth, for their own gain.

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    1. Yes. There are no actual facts in their expensive little booklet. (I have to say for the money I was expecting something a little bigger and more fact filled. They obviously think we are too thick to be able to read much.)

      Anyway, they can have it back.

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  10. Sorry I'm O/T here Tris but thought you'd like to read how Labour behave when they *ahem* think they are in control of a *cough* hustings in Gretna.

    http://tinyurl.com/m8wzr9u

    The Yes speakers were Chic Brodie and Chris Ballance up against the wicked witch of the South, Elaine Murray and David Mundell the Blundell, ably supported by Labour Cllr Archie Dryburgh who constantly shouted abuse at YES supporters from the floor as well as getting numerous opportunities to do so.

    I should have been there but was unable to attend due to health problems. Just as well I wasn't there cause neither I nor my partner would have been able to keep stumph. Dryburgh is a disgusting abusive individual who would have had more than a few choice words thrown back in his direction!

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    1. Really appalling behaviour Arbroath.

      If you have an argument, put it, and if you are sure that you are absolutely right, then let the other person have their say.

      If, on the other hand, you know you are talking a pile of rubbish, you have to stop them trumping you with logic.

      Hope you're feeling a bit better... We missed you. Take care and get well.

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    2. I'm fine thanks Tris. As I said, I should havce been at the Gretna abuse call but wasn't able to make it just as well for Mr abusive himself, a.k.a. Mr. Dryburgh cause I would not have been able to contain myself I'd have let him have both barrels. The man is an utter disgrace to humanity.

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    3. Glad to hear it... Save yourself for next time. :)

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  11. tris and the others but not Helena no way


    (Alex ) he will have a leading voice in the way that negotiations with the UK go.

    best reason ever to vote NO ! NO ! NO !

    The people have always some champion whom they set over them and nurse into greatness.... This and no other is the root from which a tyrant springs; when he first appears he is a protector.

    PLATO, The Republic

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  12. tris and the others but not Helena no way

    he (Alex ) will have a leading voice in the way that negotiations with the UK go.
    Best reason ever to vote NO!

    The people have always some champion whom they set over them and nurse into greatness.... This and no other is the root from which a tyrant springs; when he first appears he is a protector.

    PLATO, The Republic

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    1. This comment has been removed by the author.

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    2. Niko,forget Plato have a wee look at Cicero and whilst you are at it Socrates said that there are some people who should not be allowed to vote. Given that there are still those who do not know which way to vote I suggest they stop taxing what is left of their brain, they seem unable to assimilate either your message or the message from the YES side.
      As for you YOUNG MAN, off to the holiday home and get a tan, better doing something useful with your time.

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  13. I understand that Salmond does not want the debate during the Commonwealth games and Darling refuses to do it any other time. So much for Darling's Anywhere Annytime.

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  14. Tris

    Better Together or No Thanks Darling have scored the own goal of all own goals. To demand a debate, to have the Prime Minister demand a debate with No Thanks Darling, for the media to demand a debate, for the misguided naysayers to demand a debate the First Minister agrees and No Thanks Darling and his bit on the side McDougall go into hiding. What a huge own goal, not only do they not have an argument they now look like cowards, is Slamondo good or what. No Thanks Darling , ha ha what a busted flush.

    In saying that I agree with Helena, I would have told them to do one because debating with a no mark backbench MP who helped ruin the economy would be dragging the debate down to a regional issue which is exactly what No Thanks to Debates want.

    Bruce

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  15. NIKO; (Reply button not working).

    Actually, that's not a bad quote from The Republic.

    But what are the alternatives...

    Lamont, Ruth, Wee Willie Rennie, Miliband, Farage, Cameron?

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  16. Anon:

    I think Alex is right about that. The Games is about the Games. Indeed didn't someone from BT suggest that all campaigning should stop during the Games? Lest YES should get some advantage from it.

    Of course campaigning will not stop. That would be silly, but it's probably not appropriate to debate at that time.

    So it does look like Alistair Anytime Anyplace Darling is trying to duck out now.

    He never thought Alex would say yes.

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  17. BRUCE:

    I do see that point. I just think that, while it looks like a climbdown on Alex part, he has always said that he will debate with a senior figure from BT, BUT he should also debate with the prime minister, given their respective places in the two governments. I have always agreed with that for the reasons that I've given...ie...authority to commit to things.

    Eck has a lot, Dave has a lot, Alistair has none whatsoever.

    I agree that it bring the debate down a level or two, but I still thinki that it is worth it.

    For two hours on live tv, Alex will get his chance to show that he's polite, c;lever and that his policies are well thought out.

    Alistair will get the same time to show what a disaster he is. And that his policies don;t hold together.

    Alex will also be able to make the point on tv, live, that Mr Cameron was scared to come and debate with him.

    It's win win win for us...unless Alistair suddenly becomes a brilliant advocate of independence.

    Helena was bang on... That link that she gave to Ray McRobbie's piece is worth a read.

    But if Darling is insisting that it has to take place during the Games, it may be that it won't happen at all.

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  18. Well said 'young man'.

    Returned my info. leaflet/propaganda, too.

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    1. Hey Fordie...

      Thanks a lot. Great stuff.

      Dunno what they will do with all the paper they will have returned.

      It's a bit hard for the toilet.

      :)

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