Monday, 17 September 2012

NEVER FORGET THAT THEY DISSEMBLE, OR PUT ANOTHER WAY, TELL LIES


I have lifted this article directly from Newsnet Scotland. (If that causes NNS any problems I will gladly remove it, if they email me.) 
I did so because I think it is important to clarify this point on the future of Scotland in the EU that the unionist campaign has latched on to. The more we can show that they simply make things up, the clearer the direction of their campaign will be.
There are of course those, who would be happy to see Scotland outside the EU in 2014/15, and others who see that as dangerous. My hope is that discussion on this article will be on the dangerous misinformation campaign of Better Together, as opposed to the merits or otherwise of EU membership, which have been rehearsed over and again on the blog...
I've highlighted a couple of things which some of the commentators on this matter should definitely have known when they were backing Better Together's claims.
By Bob Duncan
Claims that an independent Scotland would be expelled from the EU have been dealt a blow after weekend reports revealed that the other EU members consider Scotland to be “an asset”.

The Mail on Sunday quotes an EU insider as saying: “People often forget the EU is an incredibly expansionist organisation - there is little doubt that an independent Scotland would be seen as an asset to the EU.”
The report follows AFP journalist Roddy Thompson's comments in the BBC's Good Morning Scotland when he confirmed that there are no provisions in any of the EU Treaties for expelling a nation or part of a nation.  Mr Thompson revealed that senior EU legal officials are currently examining ways to secure Scotland's position as an independent member of the EU.
Replying to a question on whether there exist any provisions in any of the EU Treaty's for expelling a nation or part of a nation state, he replied: “Not to my knowledge.  They tell me that the head of the legal justice of the council is now in the process of doing a detailed study of the Treaty and how that would be interpreted.
“This would be legal advice that would be given to the council - not the advice that would be given to London or Edinburgh or anyone else.
“This would be, if it ever got to the stage where they needed to brief leaders on what the legal position would be before the leaders ever took the vote.
“They don't have any provisions on if a country or if part of a country leaving.  What they do have is provisions for citizenship and rights.”
Both the Mail article and the interview follow clarification from the EU over recent days that the resultant component parts of the former UK would be treated equally following a Yes vote for Scottish independence.
The clarification was in response to Unionist politicians in the UK who had 'misinterpreted' remarks made by European Commission spokesman Olivier Bailly concerning the possible secession of Catalunya from Spain.
The EC spokesman said that comments made last week had been misinterpreted by many and that they wished to make it clear that they would not interfere in the internal affairs of Member States – including on Scottish independence.
Responding, SNP European and External Relations Committee member Aileen McLeod MSP said:
“This high level confirmation that the nations of Europe are ready to welcome Scotland as an equal and independent country confirms what the SNP has long argued and what Scots already know.
“The reality is that an independent Scotland will remain within the European Union, accepting all the treaties and obligations that currently apply to us as part of the UK.”
In a further blow to the anti-independence camp, it emerged that such a situation has already occurred.
In 2003 the tiny Caribbean islands of St Martin and Saint Barthélemy voted to secede from Guadeloupe, which is an overseas region of France and therefor part of the EU.  Crucially the newly independent islanders remained EU citizens and the territories inherited all the treaty rights and opt-outs of France and did not have to re-apply for EU membership.
Ms McLeod added: “The fact of the matter is that the people of Scotland are already citizens of the European Union, Scotland has been part of the EU for 40 years, and we will continue our membership as an independent and equal country after a Yes vote - with a voice and votes at the top table to protect and promote our national interests
“This is another blow to the negativity of the anti-independence campaign.  Their scaremongering simply doesn't stack up.
“I believe that the people of Scotland will vote to take charge of their own future, and they will not be fooled by the relentless negativity of the No campaign."
(Thanks to Arbroath 1320 for bringing this to my attention.)

46 comments:

  1. I think the whole Bitter together campaign is one big joke at the moment.

    They have NO evidence of WHY we're better together.

    They have NO proof that we would be poorer apart.

    They are NOT running a positive campaign, despite their claims at their campaign launch.

    They are NOT fighting to SAVE the union, but to SAVE their future ermine clad robes and red leather seats in the HoL.

    They have NO answers to ANY questions that are put to them about the union.

    They are a bunch of navel gazing individuals who think that constantly spreading lies, deceit, innuendo and misinformation is enough to retain the union.

    They are a bunch of individuals who have NO vision of the future for Scotland.

    They are a bunch of individuals solely focused on ONE person and NOT the argument.

    They are a group of individuals who have a great deal of in fighting to contend with that they can NOT concentrate on the defence of the union.

    They include a bunch of UNIONISTS in their number who are NOT unionists. Still trying to get my head round that one!

    They are a ONE party campaign, where as the YES campaign has members from across MANY parties.

    The Bitter camp are SCARED of change. They can't handle NEW challenges. They are quite happy to shove difficult questions and problems "under the csrpet" to be dealt with at "some future date."

    Finally, I'd like to suggest a new anthem for the Bitter campaign.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rY0WxgSXdEE

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  2. Well Tris, I think I might have been a wee bit prophetic with this.

    "They are a group of individuals who have a great deal of in fighting to contend with that they can NOT concentrate on the defence of the union."

    Here's the proof.

    http://newsnetscotland.com/index.php/scottish-politics/5854-lamont-leadership-disintegrating-as-labour-party-infighting-exposes-scottish-tensions

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  3. expelling a nation or part of a nation


    Er! Scotland will be expelling itself by separating from the eu and becoming a new state.

    I mean thats easy enough to understand.

    and as a new state will have to ask
    for membership after a referendum on the eu being won in the new state of Scotland

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  4. Pretty much agree with that...except for that one in the middle where you can't get your head around. Biting the dust seems like what they will do.

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  5. As Scotland would become a new new state, as you put it Niko, and would have to ask for membership of the E.U. then the same obviously applies to the rUK. After all if Scotland as a NEW country has to apply the the rUK will also have to apply because it is a NEW country as well!

    "The Mail on Sunday quotes an EU insider as saying: “People often forget the EU is an incredibly expansionist organisation - there is little doubt that an independent Scotland would be seen as an asset to the EU.”

    I know how much you detest NNS Niko so here are a couple of quotes from a recent article.

    "Replying to a question on whether there exist any provisions in any of the EU Treaty's for expelling a nation or part of a nation state, he replied: “Not to my knowledge. They tell me that the head of the legal justice of the council is now in the process of doing a detailed study of the Treaty and how that would be interpreted.

    “This would be legal advice that would be given to the council - not the advice that would be given to London or Edinburgh or anyone else.

    “This would be, if it ever got to the stage where they needed to brief leaders on what the legal position would be before the leaders ever took the vote.

    “They don't have any provisions on if a country or if part of a country leaving. What they do have is provisions for citizenship and rights.”

    Both the Mail article and the interview follow clarification from the EU over recent days that the resultant component parts of the former UK would be treated equally following a Yes vote for Scottish independence."

    Any one else wanting to read the whole article can do so here.

    http://www.newsnetscotland.com/index.php/referendum/5853-eu-boost-for-yes-campaign-as-independent-scotland-described-as-qassetq.

    Tris, I think the best I can do for you is suggest you ask that nice Mr Murphy to explain the in's and out's of being a unionist but NOT being a unionist, he seems to have that idea pretty much well sewn up.

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  6. That's interesting, Arbroath, but no more or less than we might have expected.

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  7. Niko. Don't do a Lamont. When a precedent has been shown to have set, it seems unreasonable to say that it will not be kept up.

    Scotland isn't a part of a country. It is a country, joined by a Treaty of Union, to another country.

    It is therefore, a member of the EU and its people are citizens of the EU, just like the people in Guadalupe, St Martin and St Barthélemy.

    What's so hard about that.

    Lamont made a trout of herself by going on about this on Thursday when the point had already been conceded by the EU that the remarks made were nothing to do with Scotland.

    Regions may be different. So, if Cornwall decided to be independent, it might be more difficult to persuade the EU of its continued membership.

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  8. The only thing that Mr Murphy needs sewn up is his gob, which he seems to open too frequently.

    Is he the problem behind Mrs Lamont's silence on everything.

    Or is it that London MPs don't want some little MSP bossing them around?

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  9. "Support for Scottish independence has surged to become the most popular choice among the Scottish electorate when considering the best constitutional options for the future of their nation, according to a new survey.

    The latest British Social Attitudes survey:http://www.bsa-29.natcen.ac.uk/read-the-report/scottish-independence/introduction.aspx (figures in brackets relate to 2012) finds that 43 percent (28%) of Scots prefer full independence with 29 percent (32%) prefering DevoMax while status quo appeal has fallen to 21 percent (27%) support and backing for no devolution now trailing at 5 percent (10%).

    Added together the BSA survey shows, in a large sample size of 1,197 voters, that support for more powers being repatriated to Scotland from Westminster now stands at 72 percent."

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  10. He may open his gob Tris, but does anyone actually listen to the garbage that comes forth? I think not!

    I must admit that I didn't think Murphy popped his head above the parapet that often, still nice to see he is useful. The only problem is that his purpose is on the stage as a comedian NOT as a politician.

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  11. Good spot C.H. :lol:

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  12. Whats with you lot???

    if someone leaves a room voluntary how does that become an expulsion.

    If Scotland leaves the Glorious UK then by definition it leaves everything the uk has joined.
    Now the organisations which Scotland on becoming separate from the uk may instantly allow the new Scotland join asap any obligations etc would not automatically devolve to the new nation state.

    anyways what i find illuminating in all this snp discourse is this
    any decisions after the painful heart rending separation.

    would presumably be taken by the new Scottish Parliament whoms make up and constitution we do not yet know.

    And whose to say any snp ideas suggestions would carry any weight at all.

    Ultimately that is why the snp are flailing hopelessly around low % in there separation attempt.

    What we have is Alex Salmonds Independence campaign and not I repeat not a Campaign by a representative cross section of all Scottish society.

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  13. I'm not talking about expultion at all.

    I said that if Scotland leaves the UK it will still be a member of the union, and the precedent for this is the part of France in the Caribbean which left to regain its independence.

    Of course after independence we could see a labour government led by Mrs Lamont.

    She might decide to take Scotland out of the EU.

    She might decide to have a referendum, who knows.

    The argument is, will Scotland automatically be booted out of the EU and have to rejoin.

    The answer appears to be no.

    But it might decide to leave.

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  14. Tris, the figures in the brackets, should that not relate to an earlier survey year rather than 2012 which is the current year?

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  15. I see Niko has "enlightened" all of us.

    The Independence debate is between the Labour party and the S.N.P.

    Apparently the S.S.P, the Green party, Independent politicians etc are ALL fully signed up members of the S.N.P.

    Funny I thought the S.S.P. members were signed up to the S.S.P. The Green party members were signed up to the Green party etc.

    The YES campaign as every one knows, except of course poor wee Niko, is an umbrella movement made up of MANY parties and individuals. The S.N.P. is just ONE of the parties involved in the YES campaign.

    The trouble for the unionists is that they have NO answers to any questions about providing PROOF that we are better together. The unionists know this and that is why we continually make, and fail, the personal attacks on Alex Salmond and the S.N.P.

    If the unionists had ONE iota of common sense they would realise that providing the EVIDENCE that we are better together would go a long way to winning the argument. Unfortunately they can't do this because they have NO argument FOR the union. More over every day brings MORE news about why we should LEAVE the union. The Tories are doing a GRAND job of selling the union to the people of Scotland......NOT!

    What we must remember though is that an Independent Scotland would actually work in FAVOUR of the Tory party in England. An Independent Scotland would REMOVE around 40 odd Labour M.P.'s from Westminster making it a hell of a lot easier for the Tories to continue to "rule" England and Wales and N.I. Perhaps THIS is really the reason that the Bitter campaign is being led by the Labour party. The better together campaign is really about Labour retaining its grasp on power and absolutely NOTHING to do with the countries of Scotland and England!

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  16. led by the Labour Party, but financed by the Tories, Arbroath, and English Tories at that!

    Niko. Here's a wee challenge.

    Give me 5 reasons that we are Better Together, and please don't include all the daft ones that don't affect ordinary people, you know, like having nuclear weapons and a seat on the Security Council. They are all very well, but, it's a bit like the Queen having Axminster carpet in all her palaces... It's wonderful for the Queen and her friends and family, but it doesn't keep my feet warm.

    So there you are Niko.

    Why are we better together...5 answers out of, I imagine, thousands that you must have taken into consideration when you decided you were against independence.

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  17. That's a wee bit unfair isn't it Tris?

    Surely we should start Niko off lightly and build him up slowly. Why not let him give us just ONE example with incontrovertible proof that we are better together. Once he has given us the one example, WITH proof, then we can build up the pressure a wee bit by asking for a further two, then three etc.

    I really worry that Niko will blow a blood vessel trying to find FIVE reasons FOR the union.

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  18. Och, he's a strong boy... and he believes so passionately in it Arbroath, he should be able to give us 20 reasons off the top of his heid...

    But if you must go soft on him, I'll indulge you.

    OK Niko, Arbroath has saved you a lot of typing.

    One good reason.

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  19. Trying to work out what Lamont and Bailey would look like in that... CH

    And Harry Harperson and Mar Grit Curren too... ouch!

    I bet JB's thinking about Cathie....

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  20. The question- Why not support the Independence Campaign

    Answer- Alexander Elliot Anderson Salmond

    does it for me in one.


    'providing PROOF'


    dont work with Nats your minds are closed you cant accept the Nation state is as dead as the dead city state in olden greece.






    HARVIE ATTENDS YES SCOTLAND BOARD TO INFORM GREEN DEBATE

    6 September 2012



    The co-convener of the Scottish Greens will today (6 Sep) attend part of the first board meeting of Yes Scotland to hear how the campaign is developing. The party is not currently part of the Yes Scotland organisation and will decide whether to join at its annual conference in October.

    Patrick Harvie, Green MSP for Glasgow,



    "Politics is about trust and it's clear the SNP simply can't be trusted on transport."

    Alison Johnstone, Green MSP for Lothian.

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  21. Yes but it would give a meaning to all that desk smacking that goes on in the Labour corner.

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  22. Still banging that vacuous drum Niko or have you been allowed to march with your pinny on to make you feel proud to be a BritNat?

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  23. Sorry Tris I think I missed something there in Niko's last post. Was Niko SERIOUSLY using the fact that A.S. is the leader of the S.N.P. as his explanation and proof FOR the union?

    Well based on Niko's logic can I put forward one, no two, no make that THREE reasons FOR Independence.

    1) Nick Clegg is leader of the Lib/Dems.
    2) Ed Millband is leader of Labour.
    3) David Cameron is leader of the Tories.

    I think on this score Independence wins.

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  24. All negative, Niko. I love the union because I dislike one man.

    Goodness me that's weak.

    In any case, Eck won't last for ever. he's getting on, nearly 60.

    Now give me a positive.

    I love the union because...

    It represents a fair and decent society where people of every kind, colour, class, can live together?

    It gives me enormous pride to know that David Cameron is a close friend of Barrack Obama and even gets to sleep in his bed?

    London has a cool underground and Edinburgh doesn't?

    Scotland couldn't afford nuclear weapons and in the Union, we can, and we could blow someone to smithereens, as long as the Americans approve of course, and give us the codes?

    the flag is prettier colours than Scotland's?

    Everybody loves us all around the world?

    We are well popular in the EU?

    We punch above our weight in everything we do?

    Our pensioners have the worst pensions in the Western world?

    We are about to cut benefits to the poorest?

    In the UK they are about to privatise health (if only we could get rid of the fat man)?

    Come on Niko....

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  25. Ahhhhhh.... that's what it's about. I hope you know that Caron has a campaign to stop Page Three girls, and that that pic of yours will get me yet another black mark.

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  26. LOL LOL LOL Arbroath... good one.

    And the greatest of these is....erm ...that's a really difficult one.

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  27. This is funny...
    Will the Conservative Party be banned from the Better Together campaign?
    on Sunday, 16 September 2012. Posted in BLOGS BY OUR MEMBER'S

    By Arthur Birnie

    SRSM (Scottish Republican Socialist Movement) has been banned from taking part in the Pro Independence March and Rally on the 22nd September in Edinburgh. Because of images of some men burning a flag on their website.

    The Better Together campaign and Jim Murphy MP who is a senior figure in the Pro Union Better Together campaign has been quite vocal on this issue, he was quoted in a Scotsman article today, he stated “Flag burning isn’t the Scottish way of doing things and many Scots will remember the type of company the SNP are keeping,”

    The Conservative student association at St Andrews University hit the headlines in 2011 after it became public that they had burned an effigy of the President of the United States of America wrapped in an EU flag. It also came to light that on previous occasions, effigies of Gordon Brown and former South African president Nelson Mandela have also been burned.

    In 2011, Ruth Davidson Leader of the Conservative party in Scotland had to sack her Holyrood assistant Ross McFarlane after footage appeared of him trying to burn an EU flag.

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  28. http://www.newsnetscotland.com/index.php/scottish-politics/5862-minister-refuses-to-reveal-details-of-anti-independence-treasury-post

    Danny Alexander is a sneaky Tory boy bag of crap

    Answer the questions Tory boy...we need to know how you manage to find £50,000 (probably out of OUR money) to work in a political post.

    Shame on you

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  29. I saw that on Caron's blog and I was going to tell her to write to Kate deploring her actions to get her assets in print but thought that the hatred she has now got for those of us seeking Independence it would be better to let her get it off her chest on her own.

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  30. Now give me a positive.

    I love the union because...


    Oh! Oh! Oh!
    Please sir, can I answer that one Can I sir, please sir?

    1) Nick Clegg is leader of the Lib/Dems.
    2) Ed Millband is leader of Labour.
    3) David Cameron is leader of the Tories.


    As an aside Tris, here's a press release by the SRSM in response to the "war mongers accusations.

    http://www.scottishrepublicansocialistmovement.org/Pages/SRSMPressReleases.aspx

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  31. The LibDems are being used as fags to Flashman of the Bullington club and the funny thing is the LDs cannot see how they are being used.

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  32. Is 'leader' not a bit ambiguous Arbroath, mouthpiece or spokesperson is more fitting as non of them are leader quality in my book.

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  33. I agree C.H. but I had to call them something! :lol:

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  34. Don't know how you feel about the Pan Am 103 court case etc Tris but it appears that the wheels of Justice are beginning to turn again on this case.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-19628963

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  35. CH... yeah, I thought about making a joke, but she doesn't have much of a sense of humour so I didn't bother.

    The point is, if she is going to get rid of page three, will she also have the Scottish galleries (or in her case I suppose the galleries of the UK) take down all the works of art with women's breasts and bottoms.

    Honestly, you can take feminism too far. I'm all for equality and all, but for heaven's sake.

    Little boys could see page three... she says.

    But if we are giving little boys or girls an all round education they will have seen stuff like Botticelli's 'Birth of Venus', or Renoir's 'Bather' by the time they are old enough to look at the Sun!

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  36. bravo to them, Arbroath.

    They clearly gave a much more intelligent answer that their accuser posed as a question.

    Quite rightly they point out that a government that Jim Murphy was a part of, sent weapons against innocent people, including children, and burned, killed and maimed them. And all for nothing.

    Makes a few flag burning pictures from the national press look a little wimpy, doesn't it.

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  37. I used to have a huge amount of respect for the Liberals. Quite apart from liking many of their policies, I also though that by and large they were people who didn't much expect any kind of power... as they surely weren't going to get any. Thus I thought they might well be in the business for the good of the country... after all we need a good opposition.

    But this one little sniff of power .... and pfffffffffffffffff

    They sold their principles for a Mondeo.

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  38. LOL... Andrew Neil.

    Interesting about how much belongs to England...particularly when some money grubbing bag of garbage(I'm talking B£air here), makes the border go right up the coast so if I go bathing in Arbroath I have to cross into England.

    And the price...well, they couldn't have begun to guess how that would escalate.

    Jeez, Andrew Neil's hair....arghhhh

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  39. Couple of complaints,

    Now I'm going to get technical here so pay attention.

    Why don't you have an arrow thingy at the bottom of your comments section to enable me to scroll down instead of the rectangular thingy which slides past a few posts. I'm sure I once lost a sensible comment from Niko because of this abomination. Get it seen to!!

    Secondly, and much more importantly I notice you are not a follower on "Bytes far the biddy" - no wonder she's reluctant to post when you do not register as a follower.

    Thirdly, leave Niko alone - he is so brain-washed that no cogent arguments penetrate. It must have been a powerful detergent, or inded deterrent, they used to penetrate his skull.

    Grumpy John

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  40. My arithmetic, she is not very goood!

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  41. Right Grumpy:

    Number 1: I haven't got a clue why there's no arrow. I suspect it's the way blogger designed the site.

    Have you got one on your blog? Thought not.

    2. I am a member of Bytes, although in the interests of accuracy I have to admit that this is a very recent situation.

    3. Ha ha ha ha ha ...NOTHING would ever penetrate Niko's heid! So you're wrong there.

    :¬)



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  42. Hmmm quite so.

    "detergent, or inded deterrent,"

    Your English could do with some work too, as it happens...

    :)

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